Twin Commander
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: EricDapp on November 17, 2015, 12:23:17 am
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Anyone have vintage photos of twin commanders from the glory days? 60's, 70's and 80's pics are so fun to look at.
I really like looking up N numbers from old photos to see where they are today. I'm still trying to find out the N number of the turbo commander I flew on when I was a kid. It was when the Teton dam let lose. Spring of 76.
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I don't have any pictures but sounds like an awesome idea for a thread. :-)
Glenn
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Commander had some awesome ads back in the day-- google "Shrike Commander ads" and you can come up with some really fun stuff.
Speaking of old tail numbers, I noticed N57077 in one of the 690A ads. I flew that airplane for a bit in the late 1980s, and then we changed the number to N400N for some reason that I no longer recall. Anyway, we rented it to a company whose 690 was getting some major work done, and they flew it into a hill near Kelso WA at night... really unfortunate. One person survived. Pilot was a great guy, seemed really sharp...
Sorry for being a downer... go find some cool pictures!
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Dave Loomis pilot of Brand S twin commander.
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Found this picture of the only commander I've ever been in. Owned by Brand S corporation in the mid seventies.
Can anyone identify what model it might be? Have you ever seen this plane Don?
The stripes are different in the two pictures. Definitely two different planes.
It looks like a Rockwell emblem on top of the tail.
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Hoover and I Reno early 90's
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You all know this plane.
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I Need A Shrike - That's either a 680W or a 681. The way you can tell is of course smaller wing/smaller props, but the eyebrow window and landing lights. The 680T and 680V came without eyebrow windows and had landing light in nose. The 680W and 681 had the landing lights under the wing and they popped out.
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They are different airplanes, for sure. The second one is, as Adam says, either a 680 or 681. I think the first one is a 690, but I'm not certain. I'm guessing that, in part, because of the black painted windshield frame.
Funny to see that picture of Dave-- he looks a lot younger than when I knew him!
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This is my favorite vintage Commander ad!
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THE ABOVE SHOULD GET REPRINTED IN TODAY'S MEDIA!!!!! I LIKE IT
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Here is a similar one...
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And for the 680W fans out there...
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http://d16bsf97ryvc45.cloudfront.net/Media/2013/01/commander_840.pdf
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Photo on Craigslist. 4 bladed props.
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It says spirit of 76 on it.
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That appears to be a 680V or 680W as well, since it says "Century Turbo" on the nacelle.
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Anyone notice the four blade prop????? it was the DALLAS SPIRIT OF 76 and did a 14+ city tour... was in Dallas for the state fair Sept. 25, 1975
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Was the first thing I noticed. Thought it was a turbine there for a second.
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It is a turbine.
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Yep a four bladed prop on a turbine Commander from the factory...using the 90″ diameter Hamilton Standard 33LF-325/1033A-0 propeller.. Soooooo why are they not available now???????
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That has to be a 680V because of the lack of eyebrow windows. As I recall, the 680W had them.
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Maybe one day I'm going to know all these models as well as you guys do. :-)
Glenn
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Aero Commander Chief Test Pilot and later sales and demo pilot Jerrie Cobb... who also set a bunch of records in Commander 680Es and 680Fs...
(http://binaryapi.ap.org/169eab7fe70348a0897c3167f26ede4e/512x.jpg)
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I always wonder if, when she was flying in Africa, Jerrie Cobb came across any of the Commanders she had used for flight test or demo, and thought "here's an old friend." After all, piston Commanders are not that unusual in Africa.
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Taken yesterday on the hills outside of Mexico City. Looks like a flat nacelle specimen, but no idea what.
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This is my favorite vintage Commander ad!
Hahaha - that's my favorite as well!!
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This one is right up there with having your girl wash your stag ship ;)
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Picking up a new 690 in Oklahoma City... I know two of the guys in this picture.
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A friend of mine is letting me post some of his Commander photo collection here...
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This is the third 690 made, returning from a fishing trip (probably to Cow Lake).
This is how they used to sell airplanes, back in the day (they probably still do)-- take the customer on a fishing trip to some out of the way place in Canada (or Mexico, or the Bahamas, depending on where you're based)-- they enjoy themselves, and get to see the utility of the airplane in reaching distant places quickly and easily.
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Here is a photo of N742W in France 1967.
The original owner had an interesting history and was a WW2 fighter pilot. He purchased the plane in 1966, fitted it with a 90 gallon ferry tank, and headed to Europe.
My buddy John, who drives a 560 and is a member in TC Group, came across the photo on the web and I purchased it from overseas.
Brent
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To be clear, I purchased the photo overseas...bought the plane in USA. :)
B
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Do you know which Commander is behind it in the photo?
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Can't ID the TC behind 742W. The French source of the photo didn't know the exact location.
B
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I like the long wire HF antenna and the radome... first owner (the guy who took it to France?) seems to have loaded up on the avionics options.
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Painting a... 680?
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So N9203N, which I have pictured above, was the first production 690 (the airplanes before it were prototypes, and two of them crashed in the certification program). It was also the demonstrator-- probably why they have the picture of it with all the fish.
Anyway, here is a nice Flying Magazine review of the 690, using N9203N, written by Archie Trammell:
https://books.google.com/books?id=X8fF4FYP9sIC&pg=PA42&dq=690&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgkrPahsrNAhVB6mMKHXGvDCk4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=690&f=false
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I guess it is proof I am finally getting older. I love reading those old magazine articles and the way people spoke back then. They seemed to be truly excited about what they were speaking about.
Glenn
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Oh Glenn.... knowing your getting older is when you read something from 50+ years ago and suddenly remember reading it when it was first published....
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lol, I said "Older" not Old :-)
Glenn
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I feel like that article should be required reading for anyone considering a pre-690 Turbo Commander.
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test
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Boeing Field in the 1950s?
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These are great - keep 'em coming!
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Do you have some in the archives, Bruce?
These are great - keep 'em coming!
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Is this a Shrike, or a 680E or F? I'm guessing a 500 model...
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Donv - this is a 500S (Shrike) Model - has the 'flush' fin and rudder surfaces...
The 680E has the fat nacelles...
The 680F has the 'non-flush' fin and rudder surfaces...
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And for the 680W fans out there...
Donv - definitely the 680W - the only airframe to be marketed as the 'Turbo II Commander'...
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That has to be a 680V because of the lack of eyebrow windows. As I recall, the 680W had them.
Adam - eyebrow windows were introduced with the 681 - no windows in 680V/W (two of the last 680W airframes had these fitted at factory...)
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Taken yesterday on the hills outside of Mexico City. Looks like a flat nacelle specimen, but no idea what.
Flush fin and control surfaces suggest a 500S Shrike...
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A friend of mine is letting me post some of his Commander photo collection here...
'Straight' 560 with the exposed cowl exhausts - far right (polished)...
Remainder 560A/560E/680E...
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Do you know which Commander is behind it in the photo?
Probably a G-____ registered 680E...
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Painting a... 680?
Maybe 'Straight' 680 or 560A/E or 680E...
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test
Nice 520...
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Boeing Field in the 1950s?
560E/680E...
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I was chatting with Norm the other day, and mentioned this picture. He commented on how proud Swede was of this airplane, because it was the first 690. He also mentioned how it really seemed like a rocket ship, from a performance perspective.
So N9203N, which I have pictured above, was the first production 690 (the airplanes before it were prototypes, and two of them crashed in the certification program). It was also the demonstrator-- probably why they have the picture of it with all the fish.
Anyway, here is a nice Flying Magazine review of the 690, using N9203N, written by Archie Trammell:
https://books.google.com/books?id=X8fF4FYP9sIC&pg=PA42&dq=690&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgkrPahsrNAhVB6mMKHXGvDCk4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=690&f=false
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Another one... 520? Or early 680?
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Another one... 520? Or early 680?
Swept tail, so not a 520. Probably a 560 or a 680.
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690A Morphed.. FAA Registry shows this "N" number to have been assigned.
sort of odd as the "N" goes back to 1930.
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One Of My Favorites. ;-)
The all time best!
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Same airplane, I believe, but a different angle.
690A Morphed.. FAA Registry shows this "N" number to have been assigned.
sort of odd as the "N" goes back to 1930.
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Nice photos. There's something really sexy about a Commander! ;-)
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Steve/Don/Bruce-
Any old Jetprop photos around?
A few I found, one on flightaware of the assembly line, another of an astafan engine on a 690???
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I like the factory picture! Those look like 690s to me, but it's hard to tell.
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I never heard of that!
Did they fly it?
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Steve- Flown quite often apparently for the company that developed the engine, Turbomeca Astafan, did the same to a 680V.
Google: 'F-BXAS' lots of info and some good pics of the 690...
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In college in the early 90's I had a photography class and I found this picture I had taken on the ramp of KCVO. Transient, not based .
Paint scheme looks very similar to ship on the top of website.
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Hey! That's my parking spot!
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690A or B, probably. That's a pretty common paint scheme on Commanders. Mine is a variation on that one. I wish I could see the tail number!
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Some more good ones from my friend...
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One more...
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A lot of Commanders in North Bend...
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Do you have some in the archives, Bruce?
These are great - keep 'em coming!
Don - I have a trove of stuff that I need to sort through and will post someday. Compared to Swede's dirt strip videos, however, I have nothing!
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Do you have some in the archives, Bruce?
These are great - keep 'em coming!
Don - I have a trove of stuff that I need to sort through and will post someday. Compared to Swede's dirt strip videos, however, I have nothing!
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Classic DONV-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-Turbo-Commander-840-980-Aircraft-ad-11-1-16l-/361806481758?hash=item543d58c95e:g:Z6wAAOSwB09YGIDR
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I like it!
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Don- from the factory did the 980 have the ice boots all the way back to the fuselage? In this add the 980 at the bottom shows they stopped at the engine.
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No, they stop at the engine. My airplane, and I think this was normal, just has a rubber abrasion boot between the engine and the fuselage, but it doesn't inflate.
Commander has a custom kit to add boots there, but I don't really see the point.
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I've been looking for a scan of that Jetprop ad, but I can't seem to find anything. It would be great to have here.
I'd also like to find the 1980 Flying Magazine flight test of the 980. Google Books has every issue of Flying Magazine from that decade-- except that one!
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Agreed, any old Jetprop stuff puts a smile on my old man's face.
Is this the right magazine?
http://www.carnut.com/cgi-bin/09/image.pl?/store/mags/flmags/fl7912.jpg
Please share if you find anything.
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Yes, that's the one.
Here is the one-page Jetprop ad...
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The two-page ad.
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One more... for the 1000 this time.
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Bruce, been in a back office room for decades, must have been something your dad/uncle gave out?
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Bruce, been in a back office room for decades, must have been something your dad/uncle gave out?
Ha - very nice - thanks for the memory. We flight planned by those calendars for years ;D
Those were a tradition for a looong time. Paper calendars are kind of like sun dials in this day and age!
I just pulled a bunch of stuff out of the archives including Bob Mays gracious donation of his stash of propaganda. Need to scan this stuff or bring it to the fly in. I think Adam is going to beat me to becoming airborne however ...
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Definitely scan that stuff!
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I might just - they're doing a test flight tomorrow!
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I think this is a 685?
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It's a 685. The 680FLP, which is very similar, has nose lights.
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Can't ID the TC behind 742W. The French source of the photo didn't know the exact location.
B
straight 560 on the back which is ironic since your friend John flew them! (you can tell by the external augmenters and yet what seems a swept tail).
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I think this is a 520?
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I think this is a 520?
Four sure. Don't know of any 2-blade 520's, but it might have been an early model where they were still trying things out. A surefire way to tell, is the small window after the cockpit windows; on every subsequent model they were bigger - only the 520 had the shorter body.
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Don- after picking up direct from factory- 1980...
New plane smell and all!
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I love it!
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I think we may be one of the few Jetprops that kept the original paint scheme since new...
We went to black and silver though...
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I think the factory 980 paint scheme was the best of all of them, especially in your colors. Maybe I should go back to that when I repaint mine...
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Old School... Bring it back Don!
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It's funny-- 10 or 20 years ago, that factory scheme would have looked dated, but today, to my eyes anyway, it looks completely up to date.
I'm much less of a fan of the 840 factory paint scheme, though. And certainly not of the various browns (or "Bavarian Creme"), especially in place of the white. But a nice crisp white with blue and gray accent stripes in the factory scheme could look really good.
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Here is a picture of Hughes Aircraft's three corporate Turbo Commanders, N568H, N569H and N570H sitting at Hughes Field (Was close to LAX, but is now gone).
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That's a neat picture!
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I wonder how I could find out the original colors of my airplane? They're not noted in the logbooks, and I've not seen any early pictures of it in spite of searching... with my luck, it was probably brown over bavarian creme-- not doing that!
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Here is a picture of Hughes Aircraft's three corporate Turbo Commanders, N568H, N569H and N570H sitting at Hughes Field (Was close to LAX, but is now gone).
Cool pic. Interesting history on that airport I?m sure.
There was at least one other one, 567H, Sn 11330. I found it to have an annunciator on the panel labeled ?TALAR? which no one could explain. IIRC, there were documents regarding some microwave landing system that I believe Hughes was involved with. Can?t remember much else, but I worked pretty hard to save that plane and it?s still in service.
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Who's got it now, Bruce?
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Who's got it not, Bruce?
It?s in Idaho with the premier forestry operator.
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In regards to the pic, when did the commander line stop incorporating the small flap window on pilot side?
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In regards to the pic, when did the commander line stop incorporating the small flap window on pilot side?
I think either straight 690, or maybe very early 690A.
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Classic, been in one of our offices since early 80's. That was state-of-the art back then.
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Was that right after you took delivery? Looks like you are set up to do the North Atlantic?
You should post a picture of what the panel looks like now!
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Yep, right after... You're right-long range radios were mostly for flights out to Bermuda...
I'll get a pic of the panel as it looks today. Dual 600's.
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Great shot, just up on Flightaware
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That is a nice shot-- thanks!
I voted for it-- I'm trying to get votes for it so it will replace the default picture which comes up now.
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Some time in the 70's we had a Turbo Commander. I was around 12 or 13 years old. I never flew it, but I washed it, waxed it, sat in the front and went "woooooooh" a lot.
N22LY. Bruce traced it to Central America somewhere.
I think that airplane is why I own one now.
The last photo is from the internet somewhere.
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Looks like a 680T or 680V, Kent!
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Cool pictures!
The last one, with the 690 and the 685 and the blue bird, is a classic-- and I've never seen it before.
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My cousin, the man with his wife Linda in the picture said that it is a 680V.
K
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A few Commanders in front of the old Aero Air location, late 1970s (the 690B in the picture is 1978, and Aero Air moved to their new location on the other side of the airport around 1980, I believe)...
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95047, back when new-ish. The owner of 95047 also owned the P-51 in the background... he still has the P-51, in fact.
Before buying 95047, he owned 95019 (the Indonesian 980 in another thread).
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95047 (N1981S) on the ramp somewhere in "Arizona or New Mexico or some place."
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95047 (N1981S) on their hangar ramp, which interestingly is right next door to my present hangar. Unfortunately, that ramp is covered in so much junk that you could never take a picture like that today.
My friend tells me that 95047 was one of the "fire sale" airplanes that Gulfstream couldn't sell, and so sat in a field for a few years before they bought it. He said it had continual problems, as well.
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95019, when newish... this is the Indonesian 980, back in her glory days. Actually, at this point probably only a two owner airplane, which is sort of interesting... Erickson and then the Indonesian Air Force.
The hangar which she's pictured in front of is next door to my present hangar. Unfortunately, their ramp is covered in junk now.
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More crazy 'astafan', just intrigues me....
http://lfmpnews.blogspot.com/2015/12/1990-1996-f-bstm-fan-commander-perpignan.html
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Check out the turbines they hung on it. Also the ad stating "No pollution"... Gotta love it.
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Wonder what the fuel burn and performance was...
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That’s fantastic, what model and manufacturers are those engines. It looks like a very early high bypass turbine. What I find weird is the centrifugal compressor as the last stage of the compressor section?
I love any innovation and this is cool but a -10 gets you up against redline with out all the fuss.
Great find I love the photos just need a translation.
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This was a jet evolution of the turboprop version of the Astazou, I believe-- you can see a picture on that page of the 680 with the Astazou turboprops mounted on it.
Wasn't the Astazou mostly used as a helicopter engine? Although I do believe the turboprops were on some version of the Jetstream?
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That’s fantastic, what model and manufacturers are those engines. It looks like a very early high bypass turbine. What I find weird is the centrifugal compressor as the last stage of the compressor section?
Quite a few turboprops have that configuration - RR250/300 and the PT6's as well with a mix of axial flow and centrifugal as last stage. Not as common on jet engines, but some of the earlier ones with 60's provenance had it. I've heard the centrifugal is very efficient for TP's and axial flow doesn't make much sense there. But for jet engines it's the opposite - the axial flows do better there.
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Adam you are correct, it is used on TP but is unusual on jets.
Don you nailed it. I looked up that engine. It is unique for a couple of reason. What I found most interesting is it had variable pitch fan blades.
It was like a ducted TP, interesting stuff! It was the engine used on the Aerostar jet.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbomeca_Astafan
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Funny old one... Wonder if we can get this to the current owner (N2141B)- looks like they upgraded to -10's now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mzSpthvqjE
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Wow, that video is a find! I want to watch the whole thing.
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Funny old one... Wonder if we can get this to the current owner (N2141B)- looks like they upgraded to -10's now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mzSpthvqjE
Yeah awesome video and thanks for posting. That is amazing and there are two legs to come! I emailed a link to the owner and his pilot. I believe the plane is 2241B out of Little Rock. Ironically I was scheduled to Litte Rock this morning with the 500B.
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I wonder if that was a delivery flight? I notice that airplane was subsequently under British registration before coming back to the US eventually.
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Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uta8t-eV4M8
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Part 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTeiBo7pMF8
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Overseas ad. Love the old stuff.
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Sorry Don- im a terrible photographer... but 1980 to 2019...
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My favorite part of the ad is the size of the cabin "Business Size Interior"- LOOKS MASSIVE
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-Aero-Turbo-Commander-Business-Airplane-Prestige-Brochure-ea0291/292932285561?hash=item44341ff479:g:n90AAOSwwZxcHV96:sc:USPSFirstClass!19380!US!-1:rk:1:pf:0
And was this a sales pitch?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Commander-Park-Lighter/113654615380?hash=item1a7657cd54:g:7lAAAOSwuJlcbFD0:rk:3:pf:0
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My favorite part of the ad is the size of the cabin "Business Size Interior"- LOOKS MASSIVE
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-Aero-Turbo-Commander-Business-Airplane-Prestige-Brochure-ea0291/292932285561?hash=item44341ff479:g:n90AAOSwwZxcHV96:sc:USPSFirstClass!19380!US!-1:rk:1:pf:0
And was this a sales pitch?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Commander-Park-Lighter/113654615380?hash=item1a7657cd54:g:7lAAAOSwuJlcbFD0:rk:3:pf:0
Does not require a two MAN pilot crew lol
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Bruce- please tell me you know what this was?!?!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-AX-YOUR-TAX-BOARD-GAME-1979-COMPLETE/173757958523?hash=item2874c8097b:g:dfgAAOSwl1xcSTwl:rk:16:pf:0
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I love that! JMA, you need to buy that!
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If you haven't looked at it lately, Swede's Facebook page has a wonderful scanned article from about 1979 about Aero Air and Commander... well worth a look.
https://www.facebook.com/swederalston/
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Is Swede still alive?
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Sadly, no. Died in bed at 92 (I think?) about 10 years ago. His grandchildren maintain that facebook page.
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Any 980's keep the original "COMMANDER JETPROP" on the engine?
I haven't seen one in a long time. I know we did away with ours on the 2nd or 3rd paint job.
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I don't know about 980s, but I have definitely seen it on Jetprops. In fact, when I do my repaint, I'd like to put it back on.
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Any 980's keep the original "COMMANDER JETPROP" on the engine?
I haven't seen one in a long time. I know we did away with ours on the 2nd or 3rd paint job.
We just put that on Corey’s plane. I don’t have a photo handy.
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Bruce, is that a sticker or is there a template for that lettering? I also want to do the correct "980" on the wingtips, or at least something similar.
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Bruce, is that a sticker or is there a template for that lettering? I also want to do the correct "980" on the wingtips, or at least something similar.
It’s a sticker that we re-created. They looked nice to me - still looking for the pic. If you would like to acquire some, I’d call Cameron in parts: 309-697-6300
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Nice vintage sales photo... Sorry for link, wouldn't allow me to copy pic.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4589955817/in/photolist-H4AxxV-pLhzWz-e3yK3y-gSirED-hGU8HC-p418YY-ZJ89Rm-iuGFYr-sg36AX-23Ym7Ek-p5m9Gw-oa6Gcy-bNokNM-64iHfu-9gfRHY-dCvaGy-hCsyi4-7ZDUhG-8Q4n5N-dmpA6J-arhkqn-6SACGp-E79PRx-9q9SDq-eVWcsb-TqE5Zo-oCxzNT-kjsyCX-rHvUyr-cpPDTy-mVCWAN-eVJACa-7LaMmL-oGvp88-ekApjZ-7SxaTx-kLTxhz-eVJuq8-dFvoY3-dmpxrt-pR4P3s-9vyRv2-dNutJ5-dsTsQM-mwyBmT-842cjV-7ZAHXg-gC6Lg4-o1dtSa-aPzRRa
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Bruce, is that a sticker or is there a template for that lettering? I also want to do the correct "980" on the wingtips, or at least something similar.
It’s a sticker that we re-created. They looked nice to me - still looking for the pic. If you would like to acquire some, I’d call Cameron in parts: 309-697-6300
When I get around to painting my 980 (maybe later this year), I will follow up with you. I'd like to have the stickers-- I think they look good as well.
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Again- apologies for the link (it should take you directly to the Commander vintage photos, if not they are a little past halfway down the page.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/with/4589955817/
DonV- some pics of the original 980 decal on wingtip available.
Regarding this specific pic, never seen a 'side facing' seat in the back like that!?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4590575920/
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And a vintage 2014 980 story:
http://vuelamex.com/blog_80224_Detienen-a-2-pilotos-mexicanos-en-el-Aeropuerto-Goloson--Honduras.html
Can translate using chrome.
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And a vintage 2014 980 story:
http://vuelamex.com/blog_80224_Detienen-a-2-pilotos-mexicanos-en-el-Aeropuerto-Goloson--Honduras.html
Can translate using chrome.
95052? Looks like the story was from 2014... I hope the airplane made it's way back to service and isn't just moldering down there somewhere...
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Again- apologies for the link (it should take you directly to the Commander vintage photos, if not they are a little past halfway down the page.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/with/4589955817/
DonV- some pics of the original 980 decal on wingtip available.
Regarding this specific pic, never seen a 'side facing' seat in the back like that!?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4590575920/
Those are great pictures! Too bad they are not higher resolution scans-- I'm sure the original ones were 8x10s.
Regarding the seat, as I recall, in the 1000 the seats had the ability to track out and rotate like that. I think that was true for all of the passenger seats in the back?
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Bruce, is that a sticker or is there a template for that lettering? I also want to do the correct "980" on the wingtips, or at least something similar.
It’s a sticker that we re-created. They looked nice to me - still looking for the pic. If you would like to acquire some, I’d call Cameron in parts: 309-697-6300
When I get around to painting my 980 (maybe later this year), I will follow up with you. I'd like to have the stickers-- I think they look good as well.
Sorry, i am a little late to this question, going through my photos and resize this one to show our logo that Byerly created for us. A great job!
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That looks great! Airplane looks great as well. Is that the factory 980 paint scheme?
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Don't think the paint curled at the tail Donv- ours is original and is almost a straight line.
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Another classic marketing ploy... never saw one though, sure Bruce has.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Commander-Jetprop-Acrylic-Paper-Weight/273805551383?hash=item3fc0152717:g:Q-MAAOSwPXJcjUAS
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I'm tempted to bid on that! The only thing is, the way it sits, it looks like it's about to crash!
Actually, the last thing I need are more desktop chotchkies...
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Go for it DonV, never enough chotchkies!
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Auction ended; Don either owns it or missed it ;)
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Missed it!
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Odd question- but I have always have been curious.
Can someone explain why a westwind looks very familiar to the body style of the commander? Yet they did have the jet commander, was either related to the rockwell/gulfstream programs?
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Odd question- but I have always have been curious.
Can someone explain why a westwind looks very familiar to the body style of the commander? Yet they did have the jet commander, was either related to the rockwell/gulfstream programs?
Aero Design and Engineering designed and built the Jet Commander as well as the various piston and Turbo Commander models. Then, they sold the company to Rockwell.
Rockwell was already building the Sabreliner, and antitrust issues required them to sell one of the business jet lines-- either Jet Commander or Sabreliner. They had big military contracts for the Sabreliner and so elected to sell the Jet Commander program to Israeli Aircraft
Interestingly enough, the last Sabreliner was built sometime in the early 1980s, while the last G150 (the final derivative of the Westwind/Jet Commander line) was built in 2017... did Rockwell make the right choice?
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I'm one of the few who think the Westwind looks gorgeous. I love the midwing design and that pretty nose and how low it sits. Looks like the jet equivalent to a a fat muscle car from the 70's. But the market doesn't. Can't give them away these days. If they'd just been SP, I'd be all over one of those. Great range, too.
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I have a lot of time in Westwinds and Jet Commanders. I think the Jet Commander looks better than the Westwind-- just so much cleaner-- but the Westwinds are far better airplanes.
The Westwind, and Jet Commander, look fantastic in the air, less great on the ground.
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Looks like an Aerostar wing.
You can tell the lineage.
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Always providing great knowledge, thanks as always DonV.
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Looks like an Aerostar wing.
You can tell the lineage.
You sure can! In fact, I think the Jet Commander was Ted Smith's last design before starting Aerostar, so no wonder.
I don't know if you've seen the Aerostar Jet, which was based off Ted's jet design. It has under-wing jet engines, but I think it would have looked so much better if he had put tail mounted engines on it-- then it would have looked just like a mini-Jet Commander. That's probably why he didn't do it, though.
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Ted was a genius. His commonality between elevator and rudders on the Aerostar was a master stroke. One part fits all.
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What a site that would have been, probably only time in history to occur:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/paul-thallon/8667420155/in/photolist-ecUN3x-efvoio-efvoYW-efpDmF-ectuET-ecsnai-eca1T6-fxEoNN-e9ZK1Z-e9nxYM-e91p5L-eaEhET-eaCW74-eaKLpY-e6ycJb-e6buM6-e6jpg7-e5pGYX-e4gcof-e7csiG-e76NR2-e7MzjK-e3SAP9-dfEZqb-dcpPi3-d91zTm-d91KYs-d91JRS-da92bR-dGd7mb-cLDDpN-BTJqHB-cMzVHf-cMzV13-cpPDTy-cpPEVo-cpPpim-dmpzWm-dmpwXV-dmpxbH-dmpzQW-dmpA6J-dmpxpr-dmpAcu-dmpxrt-cpKM4J-cDxKp5-drNY4o-dCXpfS-dse652
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May be a silly question, but was there a reason behind the naming conventions for the turbo commander?
690/840/980/1000?
Also, why dual numbers (i.e. a 980 is also a AC695)?
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May be a silly question, but was there a reason behind the naming conventions for the turbo commander?
690/840/980/1000?
Also, why dual numbers (i.e. a 980 is also a AC695)?
In a word... marketing.
For certification purposes, the 840 wasn't different enough from the 690B to require a new model designation, so it became the 690C. However, the sales people felt that they needed to differentiate it from the 690B, so they came up with the name "840" and designated it that way. They also referred to it as a "jetprop" which was new.
On the other hand, the 980, with different engines, was sufficiently different from the 690B that the FAA did require a new model designation for it... hence "695." However, 695 is lower than 840, and we can't have the premium model number be lower than the low-end model, so it was called "980" for marketing purposes.
When the 1000 came along, it was able to be on the 695 type certificate, and thus became the 695A, and eventually 695B. However, again, "1000" was a higher number than 980, so that's what the marketing people wanted.
When the 900 came along, weirdly enough the FAA was willing to let it be on the 690 type certificate, so 690D. But, again, they needed a number that slotted in between 840 and 1000, so 900.
Does that make sense?
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Very much so... Thanks!
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Always interested in 80's history. Had no idea lear put out a single turbo prop. I found it an interesting watch, even shows the STARSHIP!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n037eiIhYOI
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Sorry another possible silly question for the group.
Why did some of the jetprop engines have full metal near the front (by prop) vs. painted top half the metal circle??
Sorry if that is not a very well written question.
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Sorry another possible silly question for the group.
Why did some of the jetprop engines have full metal near the front (by prop) vs. painted top half the metal circle??
Sorry if that is not a very well written question.
I think that was done as another way to visually differentiate the 980 from the 840 and 690 series. However, I think some people have put polished upper nacelles on the earlier airplanes, so it's not a perfectly reliable way to tell.
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Also, some of the earlier models had glassfibre spinners that wouldn't match a polished look, so that probably played a role as they matched better to a painted upper smile.
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Thank you both, always a wealth of knowledge.
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Well not a 980 DonV, but this is the factory model Rockwell used to give new ownders... I always keep my hopes that one day one will show up.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rockwell-International-Commander-Jetprop-840-Model-Airplane/323905686936?hash=item4b6a488d98:g:RlQAAOSwSbpdcUe6
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If you want one, I would buy that one. $230 actually seems fairly reasonable.
Second, I've flown the 840 that's a model of! 11624. The guy who owned it in the late 1980s was a partner in the Scott ski goggle business, and a big windsurfer.
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If that's an original model, you could get it repainted to look just like your airplane. Those original models are really nice-- in my opinion nicer (more accurate proportions) than any new ones on the market today.
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That's a good point DonV, and of course the listing is down... SOLD :(
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Ebay Listing:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1979-Press-Photo-Rockwell-Jetprop-Commander-980-business-plane-pim08683/233464739776?hash=item365b9537c0:g:aroAAOSwYA5eHQUp
Oddly, they mention in the description of the photo that the top is a 980 and bottom 840, but I think they are both 980's (right?).
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Based on the paint schemes, which is really the only way to know at that distance, the 980 is in the foreground and the 840 is in the background. The 840 paint scheme makes a horizontal line across the tail. There are some examples of both of them earlier in this thread.
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Thats right, remember the paint scheme discussions. Thanks as always!
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Some neat stuff on ebay right now...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Gulfstream-III-Jetprop-1000-Aircraft-report-10-25-17bb/263280128214?hash=item3d4cb7f0d6:g:CpQAAOSwytJZ8H0Y
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I like that!
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Love the old original ads...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/9-1979-PUB-ROCKWELL-INTERNATIONAL-JETPROP-COMMANDER-840-980-ORIGINAL-AD/293420413396?hash=item44513831d4:g:l9sAAOSwmbReGwG6
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There have been some amazing photos showing up on the Twin Commander Flyers Facebook group.
We need to get Barry Lane to join us over here.
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I wish "the old guard" would be more on this forum. Many never migrated. I personally have been off Facebook for 5 years and have no intention to rejoin, even though I really would like to access that Commander stuff. Please encourage them to come over here if you're there, Don. I will try to improve the approval process.
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I wish "the old guard" would be more on this forum. Many never migrated. I personally have been off Facebook for 5 years and have no intention to rejoin, even though I really would like to access that Commander stuff. Please encourage them to come over here if you're there, Don. I will try to improve the approval process.
You get the Beechtalk people over here, and I'll work on the Facebook group. Deal?
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Deal!
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Brand S Cop owned the 681B s/n 6049 from Sept '72 to Sep '78, as N9111N, so I'm pretty sure that's the one in the photograph. They then acquired the 690A s/n 11210 N57210 in Aug '78 and sold it in Mar '80.
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It says spirit of 76 on it.
It's the 680W, s/n 1834-39, N200CT. The Hartzell 4-blade props were tested in Sep '75, the replaced by the standard Hamilton Standard 33LF-325 again in Nov '75.
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Barry! Glad you are here! Lots of interesting stuff to discuss.
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Does Barry or Don know whatever happened to Dave Loomis? Not sure about the spelling. Is there a way to search through the FAA database?
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Dave was with Horizon for a long time. I'm pretty sure he retired from there, probably early 2000s. I have a friend who I think would know.
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Nice to see you here, Barry!
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Facts and data to the forefront any time Mr. Barry C is in the house. Great your here.
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I just heard from a mutual friend that Dave Loomis passed away last week. I will post an obituary when I find it.
Dave Loomis pilot of Brand S twin commander.
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Thanks Don.
I’ve only flown in a commander twice in my life. Once with Dave as a kid and the other time was with you.
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Classic right here, sale price 1.4 mill!
Im bidding to buy it, my old man will get a kick out of this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Vintage-Gulfstream-American-Commander-Jetprop-Series-Brochures-ADS-1980s/224221764928?hash=item3434a89d40:g:0kMAAOSwQX9fkHDp
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You should definitely get it. I have scans of the blue 980 factory price list-- in fact, I've posted them here somewhere.
I just bought the December 1979 issue of Flying on eBay, which has the 980 on the cover. I'm waiting for it to show up.
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Awesome DonV please post when it does deliver.
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Here it is. Sorry for the poor quality of the scan.
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Fantastic.... Just got the 980 Brochure in, will upload here. Its in shockingly great shape.
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A pic you don't see this often. I would have thought gears up= bent props.
https://noticieros.televisa.com/ultimas-noticias/falla-avioneta-esposa-gobernador-zacatecas/
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What a beautiful paint job.
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I created a new thread about this accident, because I'm kind of curious what happened.
A pic you don't see this often. I would have thought gears up= bent props.
https://noticieros.televisa.com/ultimas-noticias/falla-avioneta-esposa-gobernador-zacatecas/
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Some time in the 70's we had a Turbo Commander. I was around 12 or 13 years old. I never flew it, but I washed it, waxed it, sat in the front and went "woooooooh" a lot.
N22LY. Bruce traced it to Central America somewhere.
I think that airplane is why I own one now.
The last photo is from the internet somewhere.
The shot of N22LY, the 680T s/n 1563-19, converted to a 680V in November 1967, shows a fairly rare Little Rock Airmotive/Federal Express nose radome has been installed, under STC SA798SW. It was then converted to a Century Turbo, by June 1974.
As N400G, it was seemingly seized in Colombia by October 1980.
(The image is back on page 8 of this thread).
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I noticed a comment about Dave Loomis who passed away this last October. Here's a picture of David in the early 80's taking care of business at Aero Air, evidently right around Halloween. I think I still have that little pumpkin full of little trick or treats.
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Perhaps not a vintage photo discussion, but curious anyway. Anyone know what became of the Bethany OK factory?
I believe from the old ads I have and see on ebay- it was located at 5001 Rockwell Av, Bethany OK?
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Pic here.
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It’s still standing but abandoned as is the Flightsaftey training facility with the signs still on the walls. Like a ghost town. I have pics of the FSI facility but I’m sure you can see it on google earth.
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Don't know if it's the same place you are talking about Bruce, but one of the hangars is occupied by Valair Aviation. I stopped there on my flight back home from Chattanooga when I bought the 685. Here are some pictures.
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Thanks guys. Is it just me or does that seem like a really small building for a commander assembly line?
Attached is the original photo I posted a long time ago on this thread of the assembly line from 'flightware'
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That’s the Flightsafety building. The production line was here:
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Awesome stuff, thanks Bruce, this old stuff absolutely fascinates me.
I used your google map idea, looks like there is a commander on the tarmac- missing an engine (see pic attached). Is there still some type of service center our there?
Also, how did it work at production time- completed plane comes out front (or back)? and crosses the road?
Is there anyone who possibly has an old pic of the 'leftover' commanders in the 80's that were sitting in the grass?
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I'm reading a biography of Jerrie Cobb and Jackie Cochran, and now I understand this picture. I always wondered why the panel looked so empty-- well, that airplane is a 680E she used to set both speed and altitude records, and it was as stripped down as it could be. I think maybe she had a handheld radio, and that was it.
Aero Commander Chief Test Pilot and later sales and demo pilot Jerrie Cobb... who also set a bunch of records in Commander 680Es and 680Fs...
(http://binaryapi.ap.org/169eab7fe70348a0897c3167f26ede4e/512x.jpg)
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Okay Commander Spotters - I found this tonight sifting through old slides from my Dad. This photo was taken 2 years before I was born. That is my Uncle and Grandfather. What I don't know is - what model Commander this is.
Kent
Also, thank you Barry Collman for the info on N22LY. That was very kind.
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If we knew what year you were born, that would help!
I'm not good enough to tell the difference between a 520, a 560, and a straight 680, but I'm guessing one of those.
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Good Challenge.
I feel like the intake scoop on bottom of nacelles, and the blister for ejector pipes are clues.
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680 Super?
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It's a great picture. You can't quite tell if the tail is swept. Which would be a dead give away. It has three blade props, makes you think 560 or later.
I went through "Stars & Commanders" tonight. Couldn't find any 520s with 3 blade props. But, even so, the cowl inlets, the undercowl inlet scoop... it's a 520.
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Google finds a bunch of 520s with 3-blade props. And looking at it, I think the tail is straight, so I'm going 520.
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Sorry about that. I was born in 1958. The picture was taken in May of 1956.
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Looks like a 520. That little tiny scoop behind/above pilots side window I had on mine. And the oil coolers looks that way exactly, too. But the straight 560 can be deceptively similar in front when you don't see the tail.
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I had dinner with the gentleman on the left a few days ago. Still going strong, and told me about picking up the first production 980 at the factory and flying it home.
Picking up a new 690 in Oklahoma City... I know two of the guys in this picture.
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Is that Norm?
On a different subject, I found these films, hoping Adam or someone knows how to digitize them as I’d love to watch each one. A bunch of cassette tapes as well, maybe they go together?
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Bert Zimmerly, Swede, and the gentleman on the right is maybe the national sales manager for Aero Commander?
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Vintage application for a current problem
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Bert Zimmerly, Swede, and the gentleman on the right is maybe the national sales manager for Aero Commander?
So Bert is alive and well? I didn’t know him, just the name.
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Yes, Bert is doing fine. He's in his 90s now, I think. He flew actively until his early 80s.
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Is that Norm?
On a different subject, I found these films, hoping Adam or someone knows how to digitize them as I’d love to watch each one. A bunch of cassette tapes as well, maybe they go together?
What kind of film is in there? Stills negatives or microfilm archive?
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DonV- if you dont mind me asking, who was the original owner you mentioned having dinner with of the first 980? Search shows it would have been N980AA deregistered about 10 years ago?
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The gentleman I was referring to was Bert Zimmerly, who was the pilot/salesman. I believe the owner was Andy Anderson, a construction guy who owned a bunch of Commanders... and also owned the first 1000. He was a very good customer of Aero Air!
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Is that Norm?
On a different subject, I found these films, hoping Adam or someone knows how to digitize them as I’d love to watch each one. A bunch of cassette tapes as well, maybe they go together?
What kind of film is in there? Stills negatives or microfilm archive?
It’s some kind of reel. Seems like it was setup to do sales training in a consumer projector but this kind of stuff is way out of my wheelhouse. I could send it all to you if you want to check it out and I’ll help pay to transfer it to another medium if it’s worth watching?
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Thanks DonV, that makes sense for N980AA then :).
Guess there were quite a few more west coast operators than east coast?
Wallmart/Andy Anderson Construction/840JW, etc to think of a few.
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WalMart is in Arkansas, so not really west coast.
I've been trying to convince Dave Amis, who posts a lot of fantastic pictures on FaceBook, to post some here. If all else fails, he told me I could repost some of them.
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A bunch of Commanders at HIO at the airshow, mid-1970s...
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500B, I believe...
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I think some of the pictures I posted in the past got lost due to a crash or something, so I'm going to repost a few here.
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It’s some kind of reel. Seems like it was setup to do sales training in a consumer projector but this kind of stuff is way out of my wheelhouse. I could send it all to you if you want to check it out and I’ll help pay to transfer it to another medium if it’s worth watching?
Sure! Send it to me and I can have a look. I'll email you.
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A few 980 flight test phots courtesy of our newest member, @Daveamis3:
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Wow, looks like nasty weather and a feathered prop! ???
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I think it was icing certification.
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Awesome stuff DonV thanks for posting.
Yeah how do you even get that photo? Air to air photography during icing conditions? Great stuff.
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Found this neat, the "regimental" color scheme is so disco 70's. Amazing!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/204133135766?hash=item2f87487596:g:BacAAOSw1gBjWaK6&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8Fv8yN0%2FvQZvvxzO3kWs1nAUL84ymFUOkdyCsKwPHnkhyQfl%2BAJUOkqXrhQSPPq%2FIZ2NgXsT7pD13EXg1b0S1frHNBI38rAWQgMLiin8aHZ0VoWHe%2F3gORCFzK81xTE%2BhVxpf5y5Uofgwg7z5LT5%2BBqeJRHWm6Qwn6Wea2khyHzGkR44dgbsJd3o6W4F%2B%2FJJkbNONvhCn7IjJCrKojhkJENBRbU4f5eGDnOJ%2FrbkD80eCL6x%2FA9ex1Y%2FilN4l3VsvlNpNW3yGzRy7DVJV78P%2BBsUvif9ci2d7mMBUlDtvW6eaWDdss0hgXuvXvokVYSyfA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7zKlZzTYg
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Wow, that is a cool find! If one of those came up for the JetProps, I think I would buy it, or at least make an offer.
I find it interesting how leather has almost completely replaced cloth in aircraft interiors (and cars, for that matter). My airplane has cloth seats trimmed with leather, and it's very nice, but you rarely see that any more.
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Wow, that is a cool find! If one of those came up for the JetProps, I think I would buy it, or at least make an offer.
I find it interesting how leather has almost completely replaced cloth in aircraft interiors (and cars, for that matter). My airplane has cloth seats trimmed with leather, and it's very nice, but you rarely see that any more.
And let’s face it, those cloth seats are more comfortable than most of the re-do’s!
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Mine are not like the originals, but still cloth...
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vintage 1967 680flp and vintage 1981 980, just such a nice day out to fly. I find myself at times just starring at these birds for awhile just sitting on a chair next to them. Is that normal?
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That is awesome! How much do you fly the 680FLP?
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well, not nearly enough, probably 5 to 10 hours a year. trying for more.
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It's hard when you have that beautiful 980 sitting there!
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Completely normal. Keep doing it. I sure everyone will agree with me.
Also, send a pic or two of FLP in operation.
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Random Question- why on some commanders at the engine were some not metal all the way around? I highlighted photo attached for the specific location I am speaking about. Most are all metal circled the entire way around.
PS Sad to see a 1000 in museum and not in use.
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They are all metal, just some of them are painted and some of them are polished. I believe, with fairly low confidence, that when they were new, the -10s were polished and the -5s were painted. So my hunch, could be wrong, is that is a 900 and not a 1000.
These days, many of them are polished because people prefer that look.
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It looks like the Mexicans have at least 2 1000s (or a 1000 and a 900) up on sticks... kind of sad. I can understand putting a 680 or even an early 690 up on a stick, but a 1000?
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Thanks as always Don-
I had meant to say 'painted half way', not 'metal half way'. I guess my question is what was the point (or benefit) to paint? I always wondered the same for the props. Every time we get them painted (prop stripes) they don't last very long.
Also, you come to my next question; why a 900 and 1000??? Obviously its an assumption the option was there, but I would 'think' it would have been worth it (?) to pick those up at government auction (cheap) bring it back to Byerly and get them up to 1.5 Mill?
The 1000:
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10902034
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That is a question for Bruce Byerly. I would think even a clapped out 1000 or 900 would be worth at least $500k or more.
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Yep, general question to the audience if there are any guesses.
Sad fate, but I guess museum isn't the worst outcome, but assumed some usable life still remained.
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No 1000 or 900 for that matter belongs on a stick but, you know, you can’t save them all from corrupt and inefficient governments. The frustrating part is all the planes from Iran to Venezuela and Columbia that are sitting around in decay without any mechanism for retrieval. One in Mexico came up lately. Those agencies down there just squander assets. It’s a shame.
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Bruce, do you know which airplane that is in JMA's first photo, on the stick? Usually I can figure it out using Google, but not in this case. My only clue is the painted top of the nacelles, which makes me think 900, but I don't have much confidence in that.
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Love a good mystery, i'll do some digging.
Another Mexico 980, museum piece now it seems:
https://airfighters.com/photo/274853/M/Mexico-Air-Force/Rockwell-Aero-Commander-695/3963/
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Bruce, do you know which airplane that is in JMA's first photo, on the stick? Usually I can figure it out using Google, but not in this case. My only clue is the painted top of the nacelles, which makes me think 900, but I don't have much confidence in that.
Still trying to figure out if it’s a 900 or 1000. Out of 28 900’s, a few have vanished into Mexico and SA. The exhaust is the easiest way but only if it wasn’t converted and this plane seems to have the larger pipes but the straight cut fairing. So in 5 min, no, I can’t figure it out.
Then you have the serial number swaps. So a plane could be identified as on serial number and shows up as a different one. As is case with 1000 Sn 77 that is actually an early 900.
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Love a good mystery, i'll do some digging.
Another Mexico 980, museum piece now it seems:
https://airfighters.com/photo/274853/M/Mexico-Air-Force/Rockwell-Aero-Commander-695/3963/
One thing for sure, it’s not sn 96010 like the caption says!
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95010, too easy!
https://www.planelogger.com/Aircraft/Registration/3963/607487
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True- Was thinking maybe a typo 95010 like you DonV, but 95010 is showing still active as YV0154???
Another shows same plane with 980 on wingtip, but look at the prop in original pic and nose cone in below, seem very small to me.
https://www.airhistory.net/photo/561937/3963
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It's a 980, almost certainly 95010. And definitely a bit sad.
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I'm far from an expert, but I'm with JMA on the small props in the 1st picture. And (I may be mistaken) it looks like the left engine's prop blades are turning like the old Century engines (counter-clockwise viewed from the front), not -5 or -10's (clockwise viewed from the front). But the nose isn't a 680 vintage either.
Who knows what numbers and "mod's" they put on this stuff down there "just for display".
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Airplane is a 980-- 100%. Not sure what the deal is with the props, though. They kind of look like the test props Aero Air used to have for use in their engine test stand.
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Airplane is a 980-- 100%. Not sure what the deal is with the props, though. They kind of look like the test props Aero Air used to have for use in their engine test stand.
The prop is 2 pc spinner like a Shrike with updated Hartzell compact props. Or sometimes they grind down what’s left of the blades after a crash so they look short, but not in this case.
You can’t even be sure it’s a 980 unless you go serial number hunting on the plane. Trust me on this - you can’t trust anything that’s been down there. I’ve watched people lose millions. That repo guy on TV took advantage of someone in one case even though I told him in advance.
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That's a fair point. Would you agree that it is a Jetprop (840 or 980), at least?
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For sure. And you’re probably right on with 95010
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Forgive my fascination with history. Wish it was still 1981.
Anyone have old pics of commander plant or the unsold commanders in a field during the 80's drought?
As Bruce provided earlier, seen in the attached pic. I assume the completed airframes would cross NW50 St via a taxiway that no longer exists? Does anyone know what building performed what function?
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Not 95010 and not 96010. The trouble with the military examples in Mexico of the Twin Commanders is that, apart from 20 Shrikes supplied as new, they were all acquired through having been seized. Therefore, the serial number plate is highly probably either "home made" or from another Twin Commander. Serial 3963 was probably re-serialled from ETE-1363 and although Mexican records show the serial as 95010, that is highly suspect, being now evidently YVO154 in Venezuela, having been seized from a Colombian example, HK-3412W in January 2006. The other image of "3963", being a side-on view, clearly shows a minimal dorsal fin fillet. All Models 695 had such a fillet, as did the 695A up to serial number 96024. s/n 96205 onwards had a much larger fillet, on the instruction of Al Paulson at Gulfstream, who wanted them to look "like a Gulfstream III".
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Probably a 695A, but could be a 690D. Note that all 690D had this lage dorsal fin fillet, as did the 695A from serial number 96025 and upwards.
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"That is a question for Bruce Byerly. I would think even a clapped out 1000 or 900 would be worth at least $500k or more."
The details uploaded for this image quotes the serial number as 96056, which I think is wrong. The confusion possibly arises from other images of it with the Mexican AF serial "3958" showing on the nosewheel door. I think 3918 is serial number 96041, while 3958 is serial number 96056.
96041 started life as N9961S, becoming HK-2912X, HK-2912, HK-2912P and presumsably seized in Mexico, becoming ETE-1318, then 3918.
96056 started life as N31GA, becoming HK-3263X, HK-3263, HK-3263P and presumably seized in Mexico. becoming ETE-1358, then 3958.
But that all depends on whether the serial number plates on both are the original factory ones, of course!
We need a volunteer to climb on board and see what the marker pen serial is shown on the fuselage frames !
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Barry, so glad you are back! Please come back more often!
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Always great to have your depth of knowledge on the site Barry... Thank you I always learn something from your posts
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Barry! Where have you been hiding? You’ve been missed.