Twin Commander

General Category => Airframe => Twin Commander Turbine => Topic started by: Adam Frisch on October 07, 2015, 01:19:13 am

Title: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 07, 2015, 01:19:13 am
This is a partial republish from another forum from the beginning of the year:

I was stuck in a hotel room for work in Slovenia of all places. Jetlagged, and a little drunk, I decided to browse the Controller website. Shouldn't have done that. I was a happy Aerostar owner and had just overhauled both engines on it, planning for the next upgrade when...I saw the ad. A first generation Turbo Commander 680V with the Century engine upgrade - at a price that was pretty much equal to what I could get for my Aerostar… Three minutes later I was on the phone to the owner in Alaska and arranging to to come see it upon my return to California. And as I suspected, all it took was one visit. The old girl spoke to me. Just always wanted a Turbo Commander, and this was the entry ticket into the club - the later models were above my pay grade.

There a sucker born every minute, apparently.

What kind of makes it a good first turbine is it's a good compromise between the old and the new: don’t have to follow the newer 690’s onerous spar and pressure vessel AD’s, nor do I need to do the gear overhauls every 5 years, but still have the speed of the later models. It’s also a Commander, which was familiar territory for me. I and been missing the bush capabilities of my Commander. Knowing you can get in and out of almost all airfields.

The panel is from hell (a messy nightmare), the interior is a pink leather bad dream and it certainly is no one’s idea of a pretty paint scheme, but hey, it’s a turbine! About 1000hrs left on the 5400hr TBO engines. One of them has only got 140 cycles left on the engine (a new concept for me), so will need a hot section inspection in about a year. This was reflected in the price.

I’ve done my research on this model with both Morris and other owners. I’ll be burning 55-65gal/hr, which is double of what I’m burning now. But Jet A1 is also cheaper and I’ll go about 50kts faster. Per nm it’s probably a wash. An owner I spoke to in San Diego says his operating costs are about $650/hr, which is only about $200 more than the Aerostar. Only time will tell if that holds up.

I have no illusions, this will end up costing me more per year. But for that I get all weather capability, reliability, speed, long range (1200nm) and no more avgas constraints. This one I can take on my dream trip to Europe and feel safe and confident she’ll get there.

The journey begins. Hey, you only live once. And you can't take it with you…

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/680v.jpg)
There she was. Love at first sight.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/680v2.jpg)
"Welcome Mr. Adam"

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/680v3.jpg)
Pink leather interior from hell. Notice the trademark big picture windows that came with almost all Turbo Commanders (900 and 1000 models did not have it).

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/680v7.jpg)
More pinkness.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/680v4.jpg)
Panel from hell

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/680v5.jpg)
More panel from hell.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/680v6.jpg)
Even more panel from hell.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/680v8.jpg)
It's even got cabinets!

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/fuel.jpg)
Say hello to $1000+ fillups. There's 334gal that needs to be filled if you want to go all the way.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/gpu.jpg)
GPU is a good idea for ground starts as the Garretts are rather power hungry. Especially the first start of the day. Most FBO's have them free of charge, but there are also battery powered ones you can take with you.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/propping.jpg)
This is Ted, who used to fly her for the part 135 op she was owned by. Here he's doing the usual Garrett prop spin before start. They say 8 full revolutions is a good number.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/prop.jpg)
Taxiing out for my first turbine taste at Bermuda Dunes early 2015.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/cockpit.jpg)
Out for a little spin! Thing climbs and accelerates to almost redline immediately. Even though my Aerostar is a great performer, turbines are a different animal. Lightly loaded she'll climb 3000fpm easily on a cold day.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/thermal.jpg)
Banking to final at Thermal/Jackie Cochran Airport.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/repair2.jpg)
Eventually it was time to drop her off at Morris's for the stuff needed doing….

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/repair3.jpg)
Plane wouldn't pressurize properly - door didn't seal, all windows leaked, pedal boots leaked, the fuel nozzles hadn't been overhauled, the starter generators were bad, the front windscreens were scratched, exhaust pipes cracked etc. A lot to do.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/repair4.jpg)
Cowling off for the fuel nozzle removal and phase inspection. These are the TPE3310-1-151K engines, also called the Century model. This was an upgrade to the 680V via STC, making it more like a later 681 model. If it hadn't had this, I would never have bought the plane. The old -43 engines were no good and are hard to support.

Now, almost a year later the progress has been much slower than I'd hoped for as Morris has been so busy. It's been a long wait for parts and the time needed to get her ready. Hopefully I'll get her flying before Xmas. Thankfully, it's not been too costly as of yet. About on par with what it cost to get my old piston 520 flying straight.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/repair1.jpg)
Windcsreen coming off to be sent off for polish and repairs.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/coneoff.jpg)
A sad sight when planes look like they've been stripped of all their dignity.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/windscreen.jpg)
Some anti-corrosion has been applied whilst waiting for windscreen to be sent back.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/spinnerless.jpg)
Spinnerless. The Hartzell Q-tip props are an aftermarket upgrade. The original Hamilton Standards are getting harder to overhaul. Don't think the Hartzells deliver any better performance, they're just easier to service.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/exhaust.jpg)
Exhaust stacks are off for welding and repair. You want to try to avoid buying these factory new if you can, as Honeywell really knows how to charge for a piece of bent pipe... :-X

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/N370K.jpg)
680's are becoming rarer. And unless they've had the engine upgrade like mine, they're probably an almost extinct breed in their original form. Here's a nice one with fresh paint. A new paint job is certainly on the agenda for the future.

That's it for now. I'll keep updating as it progresses.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on October 07, 2015, 10:40:13 am
Wow,  I hope one day I can afford to get a Turbine.  It's funny but there is no other plane that I look at that I feel the same about as a Commander.  I love my 310 but it doesn't have that wow factor for me like a Commander does.  I feel better about having to wait 3 months so far to fly my new bird but I'm hopefully going to have her off the ground Friday.  Was supposed to be tomorrow but not looking like they'll get everything done by then.

Good luck and can't wait for the pictures from your first trip.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 10, 2015, 11:36:41 pm
The Commanders are special. And I think I know why: You know how they say that airplanes can't be good at all things, they're always a compromise? Or good at just one thing? Well, I think that's true for almost all aircraft, but much less so for the Commanders. They're just pretty damn good at doing it all. You want a fancy ride going to the Ritz? Commander will do that. You want to go into muddy dirt strip carrying goats? The Commander does that, too. They're like Escalades - at home in any scenario.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Stephen Matusick on October 19, 2015, 06:09:59 pm
Sounds like quite the adventure- I'll  have to keep an eye out on prices and see- sounds like operating cost is similar to a piston, but better performance.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 19, 2015, 08:06:47 pm
Sounds like quite the adventure- I'll  have to keep an eye out on prices and see- sounds like operating cost is similar to a piston, but better performance.

Well, I wouldn't go that far, but certainly the fuel cost is less than on many of the bigger legacy twins with the way the Avgas price compares to Jet A1. The 681 will do 240kts on 54gal/hr. If you can find Jet A1 for $3.50/gal, you're paying $0.78/nm. A legacy piston twin will burn about 35-40gal/hr doing maybe 190kts. With an Avgas price of $5, that's about $0.90-1.00/nm. Significantly higher. But a smaller piston twin in the 25gal/hr region will still cost less in fuel.

As for maintenance, in would say that can be on par with a bigger legacy piston twin. But it's the engine funds that will eventually skew the calculations. Even though the Garretts are economical for turbines, they're over their lifespan of 5400hr TBO gonna cost you three HSI (hot section inspections) and and overhaul. That's $400K right there per side. That said, a piston will cost you about $250K/side all in over the same timeframe.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 02, 2015, 01:31:02 pm
Starter/generators now overhauled. Fuel manifolds and nozzles overhauled, spray pattern checked and sent back. Now all that needs to happen is to weld a small crack in exhaust pipe and put it all back together again. I won't hold my breath for this to happen quick, but at least it's there now.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 02, 2015, 01:38:06 pm
You're the only one right now keeping me going on my plane as you're in worse condition than me.  Mine is almost done but they've got fuel leaks they are tracking down, brakes leaking skydrol and mags leaking oil.  Once those are solved (hopefully this week) I'll be able to fly this thing finally.  I hope you get yours going soon as well.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 02, 2015, 02:42:42 pm
Good luck, both of you! I think it will all be worth it in the end!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on November 02, 2015, 03:42:16 pm
IT IS ALWAYS WORTH ALL THE BUCKETS OF FRUSTRATION GETTING A "NEW TO YOU" AIRCRAFT TO THAT POINT OF THE FIRST FLIGHT WHEN EVERYTHING IS WORKING AS IT SHOULD AND YOU CAN ONCE AGAIN FEEL WHAT OH SO FEW OTHERS HAVE EVER BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVE OR GET TO ENJOY... THE FREEDOM OF FLIGHT....
SO BOTH OF YOU GET YOURSELVES READY AS THAT TIME IS ON THE HORIZON...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 02, 2015, 05:05:49 pm
I agree.  Doubting it will be my first flight out of the shop but you are right.  I worked hard for 8 months on the 310 before I got all the kinks worked out of it and now I just jump in and go 99% of the time.  It's awesome!!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 04, 2015, 03:28:35 pm
Well, just got some good news. Starter/generators are mounted, windscreen is mounted and sealed up, nozzles and manifolds just about to be installed. That only leaves the exhaust stack repair and mounting and phase inspection left to do! I see the light - maybe I'll get her before Xmas even!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 04, 2015, 07:02:33 pm
Awesome news.  I think when we get our planes going we should do a video for everyone of us flying somewhere to the middle of the country and meet up.  I'll bring the wife and kid and we'll make it a weekend or something.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 04, 2015, 07:16:59 pm
Sounds like a good idea!!

Although as soon as this hurdle is overcome, the next one awaits: a new panel. The GPS in there now I can't fly, so I'm limited to only flying VOR nav and ILS's. Not being able to go direct legally, is going to get old real quick.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 04, 2015, 07:22:10 pm
You are too funny man.  We should just be brothers.  I also am planning to take the plane from TN to a shop here at Griffin to have a new GPS installed because mine has an old GPS without WAAS.  So guess we're both fixing up different Commanders in the same way.  Just different engines.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 04, 2015, 09:35:54 pm
Ha!

I should have learned my lesson by now - I always buy planes that need to spend a ton of time getting either serviced or upgraded somehow. It's not because it makes financial sense, and it certainly doesn't make sense from a time perspective, but it does allow me to pay as I go and earn. I don't want to finance planes, if I can avoid it. But this is probably the last time I get a fixer upper. It's just too frustrating the wait.

 :o
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Russell Legg on November 04, 2015, 09:54:05 pm
Good progress Adam - seems like Morris has gotten a reasonable run at it - nice when stuff comes together simultaneously!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Willis on November 06, 2015, 09:35:32 pm
Ha!

I should have learned my lesson by now - I always buy planes that need to spend a ton of time getting either serviced or upgraded somehow. It's not because it makes financial sense, and it certainly doesn't make sense from a time perspective, but it does allow me to pay as I go and earn. I don't want to finance planes, if I can avoid it. But this is probably the last time I get a fixer upper. It's just too frustrating the wait.

 :o

Adam,

Considering the purchase price, and the subsequent 'required and desired' work you've done;  Could you have purchased a more expensive, albeit, less troublesome aircraft?

Just thinking.  I'm in a similar situation.  The difference is, I do a lot of my own upgrades and maintenance.

-Bud
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 06, 2015, 09:45:26 pm
Not speaking for Adam but I think it really comes down to the same numbers.  The difference is the one you fix up you know better and you know more of the repair was done properly.  Just because you buy a more expensive airplane doesn't necessarily mean it's going to stay out of the shop. :-)

I like buying the cheaper ones that need more love.  It's frustrating dealing with all the problems up front but in the end I feel pretty good about my plane because I know more about it.

just my 2 cents,

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 06, 2015, 10:13:06 pm
Willis - I'm still ahead on this I think. Bought the old girl for $115K and have spent about $25K on her now. Might be another $10K before we're finished. She will need a hot section in 137 cycles (should be about 2 years flying for me) and that will probably be around $50-60K. So for $200K in total I get a turbine that I can fly for another 1000hrs, albeit with a submarine panel, paint and interior from hell. That's less than any entry level 690, by at least $100K. Obviously, any upgrades, avionics, paint and interior (as one tends to do) will take this well into the $300-400K range, and that's when it becomes dicier. You can get into a decent 690 for that. So the question becomes eventually: how much do you spend on this old one? In all fairness - this plane has pretty much all I'll ever need. I could just spend on it and make it my sweetheart and it would cover 90% of all my flying needs until the day I retire. But then again I've always wanted a Jetprop and I suspect that itch will have to be scratched eventually... ;)

Glenn - there is something nice about having been along for the ride during all the repairs. You know exactly what you've got. I did the same with my Aerostar - took her from a run out 300hr over TBO plane to two brand new engines and mechanically very sound. Lost my shirt when I sold her, but I knew she was solid when I flew her. It's just the wait that's getting to me. Just had to do my recurrent IFR 6 approaches/holds because I haven't flown for over 6 months. That's what's getting me down. But I suppose it's like they say: you can't have cheap, good and fast all at the same time. So I've given up fast.  ::)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 06, 2015, 10:37:43 pm
I don't know that much about the turbines but what is the difference in yours and what you're calling a JetProp?  I thought a turbine was a turbine.

Thanks,

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 06, 2015, 10:46:29 pm
Glenn, Jetprop is the collective name for the later 840, 900, 980 and 1000 models. It's what Gulfstream used to market them under. They're basically the same planes as the 690A/B, but have a little longer wing. Some have wet wing and no bladders, some have a combo of both. All of them had either the -5 or the -10 later engines that can fly higher and faster. Better range. Some of them had higher pressurization etc.

It's just a more refined version of the 690 model. They are kind of the ultimate Turbo Commanders, if you wish.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 07, 2015, 08:45:51 am
Thanks for the explanation.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 08, 2015, 01:26:58 am
Just a quick clarification. All the JetProps have a wet wing, and they all have bladders inboard of the engines. Many, probably most, have extra bladders (the "long range" fuel option). The big fuel system difference is that the two sides are no longer connected all the time-- instead, each side feeds each engine, with an interconnect valve which can be activated by the crew.

There are a bunch of other, minor, differences-- the 840 is really a refined and polished 690. The 980 is an 840 with bigger engines. The 900 and 1000 are quite different in terms of the cabin, pressurization, baggage, etc.

Many of the service bulletins and ADs which apply to the 690 do not apply to the JetProps, since the wing was completely redesigned.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 08, 2015, 08:07:20 am
Thanks for the clarification and are you saying the later models have never suffered any wing issues?  No spar requirements at all?

Thanks,

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 08, 2015, 05:44:13 pm
Correct. No spar issues. Also no window channel issues, etc etc.

That's one reason why the JetProps command a premium over the 690 series.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 10, 2015, 01:41:01 pm
So, finally the windscreens and windows have now been installed. Windscreens were polished and repaired with a special welding compound so they could be re-drilled and better placed. Previous mounting had a lot of unnecessary PRC bonding to seal it up.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/window1.jpg)
Front windscreen.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/window2.jpg)
Front windscreen. Previous installation had the screen too high and there was a lot of PRC at the bottom to try to seal the gaps.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/window3.jpg)
New side window. Got rid of the old vent door. Although practical for talking to line boys etc, they're notorious for leaking. Also looks a bit more clean and modern.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/window4.jpg)
Alcohol window de-ice reinstalled.

(http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n171at/window5.jpg)
One of my favorite looks on Commanders is when the window frame is polished and all shiny, rather than the usual black. Makes them look great. Morris advises against this, but I'm very tempted when the days comes for repaint.

(http://www.twincommander.com/images/site/renaissance.jpg)
Polished windscreen frame. Looks good, dunnit?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Willis on November 10, 2015, 02:22:18 pm
Morris' comment regarding the windscreen frame is about corrosion inhibition.  The current frame is steel and has been passivated.

The only way to have that polished look is to make the frame from stainless and then polish them. 

Im guessing, that fabrication would be expensive.

There are some plating methods that could passivate AND change the color, but not make it "Oooo....  look;  Shiney".

Black is also a good look and reduces glare and reflections.  :)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 10, 2015, 02:37:43 pm
Thanks for clarification, Willis. I guess I'll have to paint it chrome.. ;D
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Stephen Matusick on November 10, 2015, 03:15:10 pm
Very nice- Good to see improvements made during restorations! Sounds like when you are "done"- she'll be what you really want, which is the goal of every fixer upper I think.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on November 10, 2015, 03:29:12 pm
The "new" polished windows look AWESOME... as for the polished trim... I agree the stainless is just beautiful.. so you might as well just go ahead and get it done!!
I have seen the polished stainless on two commanders and one piper PA-31P it really is amazing how sleek it makes them appear... I understand the glare factor, but I wonder how much of the potential glare would actually be reflected away by the surface of the window..
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 10, 2015, 04:13:37 pm
The windows do look really good. Does the 680V have alcohol windshield deice?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 10, 2015, 04:17:29 pm
Yes they do, Don. So they're lot cheaper than the heated ones on the 690-series. But probably scratch easier.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 10, 2015, 10:55:29 pm
I wonder if they fog up at altitude?

In the 690s and JetProps, you turn the windshield heat on "low" climbing through FL180, or they will fog over completely.

I flew a straight 690 with the heat on the left side only, but that's my only experience with non-heated windshields in Commanders. I don't remember if the straight 690 fogged up or not... it probably did.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 27, 2015, 09:26:06 pm
The main thing that will be limiting on the 680V, is probably the 4.2psi cabin diff and the fact that the wing and Century engines run out of poop around FL220. These, and the 681's, are high teens to low 20's planes. Now, you can get them up to the service ceiling at FL250, but your cabin will be almost at the legal limit, which is tiring. Also, living here in California, I'm not experienced enough in hard IFR to know if FL200+ normally gets you on top. In my experience from California, yes, but that's probably not true for the rest of the country. And that's what I intend to use it for - travel - so I'm sure I'll eventually find out. Being in the soup I don't have a problem with for a little while, but it gets tiring on long trips. Not to mention icing only happens with visible moisture.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 30, 2015, 12:37:24 pm
I think you'll be fine most of the time. One nice thing about being up in the 20s is that you generally don't get much ice (I still run the nacelle heat), because it's too cold. That's not to say you won't get some, but it doesn't accumulate like it does down low.

The one place where you can get quite a bit is right in the tops of the clouds.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 30, 2015, 01:37:23 pm
Thanks Don.

What's you're experience with TC's in ice? I've heard they're pretty solid ice carriers.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on November 30, 2015, 03:22:57 pm
Not so much about ice on the TC but landing on... http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?56538-Does-anyone-have-information-on-Aero-Commanders-using-Skis-on-snow-Ice
While I try to avoid any icing conditions.. I have never found the icing limit for the aircraft or myself..... As long as the equipment is operable and you remember to turn it on...
There was a story awhile back about the NOAA commander suddenly taking on copious amounts of clear ice (super cooled droplets) that was reported to have all but encased the aircraft and they were not sure how much the ice weighed, but got thru it.
I would prefer to never have that happen.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 30, 2015, 11:23:18 pm
I've never felt uncomfortable due to ice accumulation (as long as the nacelle heat was working)... However, as a west coast guy, most of my flying has involved climbing up through it, or descending through it. If I was slogging between Teterboro and Boston at 12,000 feet every day, I might feel differently...

I have seen some pretty good ice accumulation, though, and it was never an issue. At the altitudes where you can get a lot of ice, any Turbo Commander has plenty of power.

One thing you should keep in mind is that the nacelle heat valves can stick if they aren't used occasionally. In the summer, I will often cycle mine when descending through FL180 to keep them exercised.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 01, 2015, 12:56:03 am
When you say nacelle heat, you mean the smile, right? The inlet.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 01, 2015, 12:39:43 pm
Yes, the inlet heat.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: EricDapp on December 25, 2015, 05:49:09 pm
So if a 680V has been upgraded to MU-2 engines what would they be? Would that change make them a good performer?

What other issues would there be? Pressurization?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 26, 2015, 11:42:58 am
There are only 2 conversions possible as far as I know. The -1 Century conversion I have, which makes it almost identical to a 681, or the rather rare "Super Dave" conversion that mates a -6 compression section to the 1-turbine stage. This last conversion makes them real performers, but there are only a few in the world. There is actually a 681 for sale with this conversion in Canada now. Could be a good deal for the right buyer.

None of the conversions improve the pressure differential, so you're still stuck with the 4.25psi. Also, in combination with the shorter wings of the 680V/681 family, these are not best suited for the highest FL's. They're best in the high teens, low levels.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 27, 2015, 01:18:34 am
The MU-2 and Commanders of similar vintages used basically the same engines, except the MU-2 engines are mounted upside down. So I don't think there is any advantage to the engines used by the MU-2.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 28, 2015, 12:32:27 am
Any updates on your 680, Adam?

I'm headed to Bermuda Dunes tomorrow...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 28, 2015, 01:11:27 am
Wish I could meet you there in my steed, but alas, things are much the same as they were. We're getting there, but end of Jan perhaps. I've stopped counting the days. :-X
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on December 28, 2015, 10:31:33 am
At least you know it will be right when you get it back. :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 28, 2015, 02:21:32 pm
At least you know it will be right when you get it back. :-)


Hopefully! But I also know it's when you start flying them you really start chasing the squawks. Takes about a year to get the gremlins out of the system. Won't be the last time I see Morris or any other mechanic this year, is my prediction!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on December 28, 2015, 08:14:27 pm
Oh so true, but at least you're flying :-)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: EricDapp on December 29, 2015, 12:49:29 am
Hey Don how was your flight south today? We flew from Mesa to Eugene around noon today and it looked as though the tops were around 200 the whole way with some terrain visible. I was on the isle seat but kept looking out thinking you were out there somewhere.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 29, 2015, 10:45:37 am
It was great! On top at FL270 and doing over 400 knots groundspeed for the first hour! 110 knots on the tail. Mostly smooth, too. Might not be so great going home, if the winds stay the same...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 29, 2015, 11:40:53 am
I couldn't tell how high the tops were, but I was thinking about you, Adam. This was the sort of day that I would guess would be fine in the 680V, since you could get up to the low 20s.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 29, 2015, 12:46:23 pm
Thanks Don. From what I've gathered, you're pretty much on top 80% of the time at FL200. But the days they go high, they really go high. Especially in the midwest and eastern seaboard.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 24, 2016, 03:09:13 pm
Brief update.

New column and pedal boot kit installed. Between the leaking window seals and this, this should probably fix most of the pressurization problems the cabin had. Door seal is the only thing left that's not been replaced.

I wish I could have been there to remove the old glue and tidy things up a bit, but that will have to wait until later or when interior gets done. Priority now is to get her in the air.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 29, 2016, 05:06:34 pm
Newly welded and overhauled exhaust stacks ready to go!

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on January 31, 2016, 01:30:37 am
Nice to see progress!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 07, 2016, 11:56:24 pm
Stacks installed!

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on February 08, 2016, 12:12:23 am
You can polish those to a nice gold color.  Looks great.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 17, 2016, 07:51:41 pm
Getting closer yet.

When they did do the work under the carpet for the column boots etc, they did find why the door never pressurized properly. There's an air line there that goes to the seal in the door, but it had been crimped off and blocked by not being placed correctly. Wow. Such a simple problem.

Also, the engine mounts for the 680 turbine series and the Shorts aircraft (the only two who use them apparently), is no longer produced by Lord. Not big enough market. You can turn them around, switch right for left etc and get another few thousand hours out of them, but eventually stock will run out. Lord apparently wants some ungodly $20K to restart production and do a batch and there's just not enough market there to make that viable.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 17, 2016, 09:26:03 pm
A couple of thoughts:

1) Did you try White Industries? They've certainly scrapped a lot of Commanders over the years, and might have a used set.

2) Try Aero Air's parts department. I saw N4622E in there the other day, probably getting a 150 hour, so they are at least actively working on a 680W. They might tell you you're out of luck, but they might also have something in the back room, you never know. For that matter, I'd try calling all of the US service centers-- there aren't that many.

3) Did you try Twin Commander? Seems like that might be worth a shot.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 17, 2016, 09:43:02 pm
Good tip, Don. I've mainly let Morris deal with all the parts stuff, but I will mention it to him.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 17, 2016, 10:09:07 pm
White does have a set of Ham Standard props for your airplane, in case you want some! Their website is worth a look.

http://whiteindustries.com/
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 17, 2016, 11:00:22 pm
I got the newer Q-tip Hartzell's via STC, but I'll pass it along to my buddy who has a 681.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 17, 2016, 11:23:44 pm
You need to get him to sign up here!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 17, 2016, 11:51:57 pm
I've tried many times, but some don't want to or feel the need to. Too bad, because his 12 year ownership and expertise would be great to have here.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 18, 2016, 02:39:05 pm
I've found in my years of old car ownership that sometimes, the best mechanics are not the best at parts sourcing. Something to keep in mind.

How many Century-series Turbo Commanders does Morris maintain?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 18, 2016, 04:31:16 pm
On a regular basis just another one, I think. But he says he's been involved with almost all 681's at some point.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 23, 2016, 12:06:36 am
Right rubber motor mount was found to be sagging a little, which apparently is pretty common on these. For some reason I can't fathom, apparently the right hand side tends to sag more over time. Has to do with the direction the prop is swinging, apparently. Lord does no longer make the rubber mounts for these (and want $20K start a new run), so they're very hard to get a hold of. The trick is to swap them around from the left to the right engine and also turn them, that way you get another 2000hrs out of them Morris says. Anyway, when they swapped the mounts the found that RH mount had a crack in it. You can see in pictures on the right side a clean crack. Thankfully, Morris had a mount sitting.

The exhausts are now fully mounted with the shrouds. The dull and fading paint job is now visible in it's full effect. On later Turbo Commanders (690 model and onwards), this full sleeve shroud disappeared and the exhaust extension is visible in all its chrome glory.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on February 23, 2016, 06:59:21 am
Adam is the crack legal to have welded??? I have never had a crack in any of the mounts to date.... Also the rubber is common to have the right side sag from the prop direction...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on February 23, 2016, 07:45:33 am
Adam,

How close are you getting to having her flying again?  I want to get with you in the coming days and start working on us a flyin somewhere but don't want to do it until you get flying.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 29, 2016, 02:04:34 pm
The exhaust shroud only went away on Dash 10 airplanes. The 690s with -5s still had it, although some of them remove the shroud to make it look like a Dash 10.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 29, 2016, 03:19:49 pm
Don't think it's legal to have welded, but I could be dead wrong.

More snafus. When they moved the right mount to the left and took that off, the found the left had even worse damage. Morris says he knows exactly what has happened - the ground cable wasn't tight or attached correctly, and then they did a serial start. With that much amperage, it becomes an arc welder if the current can't flow freely through it. That's why there's a hole in it. It also had a hidden crack and some bad repairs.

Also, the new mount Morris had for right side didn't line up with the holes, although it is the matching serial numbers. For some reason not explained in the logbooks, they have put later mounts on this aircraft, god knows why. In any case, nothing bad that doesn't have something good with it: after canvassing the market, Morris found two brand new engine mounts that had been just sitting on a shelf, and we paid a very fair price for them. Better outcome in the end to have two fresh mounts.

Glenn - she's getting closer. Once this is on and some other minor stuff, she's ready for ground runs. Things could turn up there, of course, but if not, I'll then need to learn how to fly and manage the damn thing. Bill Leff is hopefully going to come out and help me do it. If not, there's another guy in SoCal that has a lot of 680V and 681 experience. I very much doubt it will be before end of March.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on March 01, 2016, 12:49:07 pm
Chalk another one up for MORRIS!!! And good you found the second cracked mount before you had the engine fall to the ramp at start or worse... It does seem odd that non-original mounts would have been installed... I am wondering if that specific mount system had issues with cracking??? As for the arc hole, I have never seen that before on any engine mount.. regardless you will have "as new" now and very safe.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 01, 2016, 01:42:22 pm
I saw one arc once. Impressive sight!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 19, 2016, 06:32:10 pm
Slight update. New yokes are now on and engines bolted back on. Telefelex cable for binding rudder trim now arrived and put on. I'm away for two weeks on a job, but Morris has kind of hinted at that he'd be ground running engines as I get back. So if nothing gets uncovered there, should be ready for training pretty soon….

Been speaking to Bill Leff, and he will come out and train me in it for about 5 days. 680V and 681 instructors are not that easy to find anymore, it's a dying breed. Yeah, you can go to SimCom or FlightSafety and do the full blown 690-series type training, but since they differ so much from the 680V/681 model in both systems and wing, size engine type etc, I think that would not be money well spent. Better to do it in the type, even though the simulator can offer things the real deal can't.

But as always, I'll believe it when I fly my steed home - type trained and signed off, no squawks, by myself. Until then, it's all still in the air. Or ground, rather…  ::)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Willis on March 19, 2016, 10:38:20 pm
Oddly enough, I was at Morris' shop to day.  Not much going on for a Saturday. 

I saw your plane in the hangar and one guy was working/talking to someone while I peeked and looked around.  I really like the interior   ;)

Lots of Nice commanders on the lot today.  A JetProp, a Shrike converted 500B  a older 680E (I think) and a few more.

There was even a Doppleganger of the USFS plane I've been looking at (N171Z).  His brother N141Z was in the shop with the props off.  Looks like someone is going through the props for some reason.

Anyway.  I was in Stockton picking up a Prop for my 210D.  A friend ran over a rubber traffic cone and his prop shop condemned it (but was willing to take it in trade for the inspection Fee).  My friend said NO way; paid the  $200 bucks and kept the prop.   I paid him the 2-Bills and will have a shop OH it for a fraction of what I could do.  I may just trade these 2 slightly used props for a really good one.  :)

Beautiful day in Stockton, otherwise.  :)

Bud
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 20, 2016, 04:05:42 am

I saw your plane in the hangar and one guy was working/talking to someone while I peeked and looked around.  I really like the interior   ;)


It's like a 60's submarine in there!  8)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 20, 2016, 12:21:45 pm
I'm really looking forward to seeing some pictures and maybe a video of you picking her up!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 03, 2016, 03:42:42 pm
So, any updates?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 03, 2016, 05:51:50 pm
Hi Don.

Yeah, it's getting very close. So sick of hearing myself say that, but now I'm actually starting to believe it. Morris thinks he can have her out of there by end of April. Fingers crossed.

New engine yokes/mounts have now been installed. Morris managed to find two brand new ones somewhere for a decent price. They're almost done ripping all the fire radios and cables out from cabin (it was going to be fire bomber spotter). New carpet has been ordered. New nose access covers have been made, and whole front of plane has been repainted as the old avionics cover and windscreen frame was scratched and in terrible shape. Cabin leaks and windows sealed. New fasteners on all access panels. Gear door removal done. Etc, etc.

What's left to do is service nose wheel and change some ball joints on door actuators etc. Get interior put back in. Need new landing light covers. Need a continuos igniter box for right engine and some other smaller stuff.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 03, 2016, 06:01:10 pm
I don't know if they are the same (probably not), but Twin Commander had the landing light covers for the 980 in stock.

Mine were so opaque I'm amazed any light got through. I put in LED bulbs at the same time, which you might want to consider-- it's a direct replacement, much brighter, and lower amperage.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 03, 2016, 06:03:49 pm
Yep, that's where we're getting them from. They still need cutting and holes drilled, so it's one of those things that you think you can just slap on, but you end up spending half a day on it.  :D

The tail light cover is yellow and opaque as well. I was going to wait to do it myself, but maybe I'll just have it done now.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on April 03, 2016, 06:41:19 pm
Awesome news.  I can't wait to see the "here is how you start a real plane" video on youtube :-)

Too bad you don't have to fly it across country and spend the night in the desert so we'd get a longer story. :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 04, 2016, 07:15:23 pm
Ha.

Well, you gotta really love old planes and flying to put up with all this BS. It's not just the repairs, after it's actually flyable I have to coordinate to get Bill Leff out to teach me how to do it. That's probably another 2 weeks or a month before our schedules line up. Even if it was ready today, still probably won't be able to fly it until June. Then when I finally get her back there's the new interior that needs doing, the new panel etc…  :-X

It'll all be worth it in the end, but sometimes aviation and the time it takes and all the rules etc sucks the life out of your spirit. I can totally see why GA is in such terrible decline. It's just a lot of things fighting you at every turn. If I didn't love flying and the freedom that comes with it in the air, I would have given up years ago. But also, the harder things get, the more you appreciate them, too. There's a sense of accomplishment there. So there's that. If it were easy, everyone would do it.  ;)

But perhaps another topic, but when friends etc get interested and enthusiastically ask about becoming pilots, I'm always super encouraging. But when I start explaining what's needed to do it etc, the enthusiasm vanes fast and they inevitably just glaze over and give up before the conversation is even halfway. The entry barriers are just astronomically hight compared to any other hobby. We might not think so being so close to it, but to anyone who's looking for a nice jolly, we're competing against ATV's, boats, hunting, motorcycles, racing etc - none of those things even come close to the hassle aviation brings. I wish there was a way to reduce that in the future, or there will be no GA in 50 years time. We're a dying breed.


Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 04, 2016, 08:43:12 pm
I agree that there is hassle factor involved, but you're also trying to make practical sense out of using a 50 year old antique!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Willis on April 05, 2016, 12:43:20 am
I sometimes waver a little, but I remind myself, that this is a Life choice.  I choose to steep myself in as many aspects of my aircraft as possible.  I really love this life. 

Pilotage, Maintenance, (and outside vendor management), Finance and insurance.

I love working on planes;  Especially engines and hydraulic systems.  For my next plane, I'll have to make a Hydraulic Mule and test bench; something I havent done in 15 years.  That will be a project.

Right now, Im saddled with other things that keep me away from the task of getting the next one.  :(
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on April 05, 2016, 08:15:23 pm
You guys just totally missed Adams statement so I'll pick it up and try to head it off at the pass.

Adam,  from those that care a lot about you getting into the air, we all have taken a count and decided it would be best for everyone involved if you left the interior as is for a while and just got right to flying.  It isn't fare for you to have such an awesome plane and it would give us something to poke fun at for a while.  :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 06, 2016, 12:59:23 am
Good thing is my pink socks will match perfectly.  ;D
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Patrick Kenney on April 06, 2016, 10:46:22 pm
My god, those are some lovely windows - they look like something on a factory new aircraft.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Willis on April 06, 2016, 11:48:47 pm
Good thing is my pink socks will match perfectly.  ;D

Only good things to say, Adam......  Im still not worthy.  :)

Bud
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 23, 2016, 04:56:46 pm
I'm thinking of getting a new tail light cover as well. Nice clear lenses do make the airplane look good.


The tail light cover is yellow and opaque as well. I was going to wait to do it myself, but maybe I'll just have it done now.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 27, 2016, 03:52:59 pm
As I mentioned, for some bizarre reason, the right hand engine still had the igniter system that could not be run continuously, even though an AD demanded it upgraded decades ago. Pretty sloppy part 135 mechanic must have signed that one off each year. In any case, just got an overhauled one from Hancock Entreprises for $1700 sent out. Honeywell wanted closer to $7K for a new one, so that feels a little better….

After that's in and nose gear has been serviced, she should be ready for engine runs.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on April 27, 2016, 05:05:52 pm
Inch by inch leads to oh so many feet closer to the promised land of Commander flying.... Keep the faith
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 14, 2016, 01:38:18 pm
Morris is firing up the engines today for the first time in over a year. Unfortunately I'm not there, but it's exciting news!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on May 14, 2016, 01:46:31 pm
Maybe he will make a video for you.... and if he does you can post it on here and we can all share in the "moment"... Nothing like watching "life" come back into a COMMANDER airframe.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on May 14, 2016, 08:07:48 pm
Congratulations,  Can't wait to start seeing your videos.  I saw your plane a few weeks ago at the shop.  I'm back in California today, not sure where you live but we're in San Marcos until next Wed.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 15, 2016, 01:04:28 pm
Hi Glenn.

Yeah, I saw some pics of you in the old girl! I'm in Los Angeles. Did you bring the Commander to CA?

As a little side note, my upper front cowlings (if that's what they're called) were always painted, whereas the lower ones (around the "smile") and the spinner were polished. Never liked that look - I think all of them should be polished. So we stripped the upper front cowling to prepare it for polishing. Well, when we did we realized why they'd been painted, haha….
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on May 15, 2016, 10:55:57 pm
Yes, We're in the old girl and have been loving flying her.  Have my wife and son with me and they really enjoy the cabin and being able to move around so much.  I just love flying her everywhere.  I started a new thread for the trip in the travel section and attached link to the pictures.  In Double Eagle we got to climb around the EAA B17 and have an assume picture of her sitting in front of it on the ramp.

Here is the link to the pics:
https://gshutter.smugmug.com/Airplanes/My-Planes/Commander-680Fp/Trips-General/ (https://gshutter.smugmug.com/Airplanes/My-Planes/Commander-680Fp/Trips-General/)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 18, 2016, 02:16:41 pm
Turns out both of the EGT calibration did not line up and he could not get the ambient temperature to adjust correctly, so engine runs delayed. Sigh. EGT's have apparently been flying around 100 degrees low with previous owner. Which is good for my engine longevity, but not for performance. After talk with Foxboro they think it's an internal calibration of the gauge that needs to be done, so they've been overnighted there and should be back end of week. So, still on schedule for test flight on the 24th.   :o
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 18, 2016, 10:07:14 pm
Do you mean the EGT gauges read HIGH or LOW?

If the gauges read high, they would have been running around with a lower real EGT, and good for engine life.

If the gauges read low, they would have been running around with a higher real EGT, and bad for engine life.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 18, 2016, 11:38:32 pm
The gauges read high, thankfully. About a 100 degrees.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 26, 2016, 06:35:57 pm
Aviation is the gift that keeps giving...

We sent both meters for overhaul. Still one engine won't show right ambient temp. All wiring has been checked. Today he's found a temp sensor in his storage, and is about to swap it out on offending engine. If that one is a dud, it's a new one from Honeywell at $1500. It's only time and money, right?

 ::)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Dhavillandpilot on May 27, 2016, 04:46:30 am
Hey Adam

This aircraft must be like my boat

A hole in the water you throw money at

BOAT. =. Bring anotHer Thousand!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on May 27, 2016, 07:51:44 am
This is why I'm sticking to my slow little piston baby for now.  I know the turbines fly just as cheap as a piston and get there a little faster, but the money sunk into getting them all fixed up is drastically more than with my piston.   I could buy 2 new engines for the price of 1 turbine and all the little things would wear me out.  I'm glad you have the money to keep going but I'd have run out by now. :-)

I can't wait to see yo flying it though.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on May 27, 2016, 10:30:59 am
Always remember it is very difficult to take the money with you... (just look at any tomb in Egypt) but you damn well can be buried with your aircraft.   Besides.. since I "grew up" I have always tried to live by those famous last words... "God forbid that I should die with a dollar in the bank"
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on May 27, 2016, 01:53:09 pm
Very very true.  I just have a 2900' limit on takeoff or I'd probably not be giving you guys such a hard time :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 27, 2016, 02:27:43 pm
No offense to Adam, but this thread is an example of why buying a cheap airplane almost never results in an inexpensive outcome. And you were starting with one of the better 680Vs in existence!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on May 27, 2016, 02:47:04 pm
Very very true.  I just have a 2900' limit on takeoff or I'd probably not be giving you guys such a hard time :-)

Glenn
Look closely at the published 50' distances for a 690C-10. And ask yourself - if I lose an engine at rotation, what do I want the good engine to be? 350HP piston or 770 HP turbine?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on May 27, 2016, 02:47:25 pm
No offense to Adam, but this thread is an example of why buying a cheap airplane almost never results in an inexpensive outcome. And you were starting with one of the better 680Vs in existence!

It certainly never results in a *quick* outcome.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 27, 2016, 09:23:42 pm
Cheap, fast, good - you can have two, right?

EGT compensator not working correctly. Got one from parts storage, but it was a dud. Now waiting for an overhauled one. Good news is he ran right engine on ground yesterday and all was very well. And I got both engine nacelles and smiles polished. Looks pretty good!

You have to be happy for the little things…  ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Patrick Kenney on May 27, 2016, 10:44:48 pm
Cheap, fast, good - you can have two, right?
Adam, consider yourself lucky if you get two.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 28, 2016, 12:48:09 am
Looks really nice!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on May 28, 2016, 07:26:49 am
HOW COOL LOOKING IS THAT!!!!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on May 28, 2016, 07:34:34 am
So my 2 cents.  Yes, restoring has its down sides but when Adam is done he'll have HIS airplane with everything done the way he wants it, It will also be fixed right which is the problem with most old airplanes, and when he's done he'll still have a whole lot less money in it than if he bought the Good and Fast one.  It is very frustrating to have to keep replacing parts but eventually he'll have an airplane with a lot of new parts on it and it will last him for a while.  I've heard plenty of stories of Good airplanes being pre-buy and bought and ended up having cracked parts they never expected that costed them an air and a leg to fix.  So you never know what you're buying until 5 years later after you've been flying the mess out of it.

just my 2 cents,


Oh, and yes, of course I'd want turbines if i was going to loose an engine.  No argument there at all.


Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Achim H. on May 28, 2016, 08:57:35 am
Well, in my experience you're just never done fixing those old aircraft. There probably isn't a single squawk free flight. All the stuff in there is old and an airplane is made of millions of parts. When I fly with others, I usually have to explain why a certain defect, warning, etc. isn't critical. Even simple stuff like a chafed wire is extremely time intensive to rectify (note: time and money are replaceable units here).

On the other hand, a factory new airplane is also full of squawks, typically for quite some time :) On top of that, there are a lot of market niches where nobody produces an aircraft anymore! Try looking for a twin-turbine with 1500NM range, 300KTAS and short field capability and what do you find? 1970s/80s Commanders and exotic Cheyenne 400. So even if you have the money and are willing to spend it, an ancient aircraft could be your only choice.

Of course Adam went to the extreme of "ancient" ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 28, 2016, 02:14:07 pm
You're not wrong, Achim. I remember when my Aerostar managed to go 80hrs before a new squawk appeared. I was ecstatic! It was a new personal record. Normally, every 5hrs something pops up. Most of it trivial that you don't need to address immediately, but still annoying. When the list gets too long, you dump her off at the mechanic and leave your wallet with him.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on June 18, 2016, 06:50:40 pm
Any updates, Adam?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on June 19, 2016, 12:45:53 am
She's ready. I just got a newborn kid that arrived this week, so need to stay put for another couple of weeks at least and help my poor wife out. Sucky timing with the plane, but I was supposed to have been trained and ready to go in her well before my boy arrived...  ::)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on June 19, 2016, 07:18:01 am
CONGRATS ADAM......!!!!!!!  I hope Mother and Son are doing great.

HAPPY FATHERS' DAY
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on June 19, 2016, 12:41:32 pm
Congratulations!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on June 19, 2016, 06:25:50 pm
Congrats dude!!!

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on June 19, 2016, 08:49:45 pm
From someone who has no idea how much hard work it is to be a father - congrats!

(I've named my left engine "college" and my right engine "grad school.")
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Sergio Vega on June 20, 2016, 01:55:21 pm
Congratulations!!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on June 20, 2016, 07:17:56 pm
Thanks guys! I hope to be able to get to the plane by end or early July.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on June 20, 2016, 07:27:40 pm
What year?

(ducks)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on June 20, 2016, 07:34:36 pm
What year?

(ducks)

 ;D
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on June 20, 2016, 07:39:36 pm
You know I'm just jealous. I have at least a two years before I can sneak into a JetProp - and that's if things go well.

I can't wait to read about the new adventures of the 680V on your first Cali->Europe trip!


Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on June 20, 2016, 11:46:57 pm
Yeah, got my eyes set on a Jetprop myself down the road!

For the Europe trip I'd need to add the drop tanks, for comfort. That's about a $20K mod. Takes the capacity from 337gal to 437gal, but won't leave room for much useful. But at 54gal/hr, doing 245-250kts, should have theoretical range of almost 2000nm. I would say safely 1500nm with healthy reserves.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on June 23, 2016, 01:26:00 am
I'm looking forward to seeing pictures!

I don't think you need to add any tanks to do Europe, if you're patient. I believe it's done pretty regularly in airplanes with 1,000 mile range-- you just might need to wait out some weather.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Dhavillandpilot on June 23, 2016, 03:11:03 am
Having done the Atlantic in my 685 without tanking. I don't see the need to do anything with a standard 690.

Use the Route

Frobisher Bay Greenland Iceland. Preswick
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on June 23, 2016, 09:54:47 am
Thanks for the course directions.  I've been looking for a way to get over there for a future trip in my 680FP and that looks like it might just work.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on June 23, 2016, 10:23:05 am
Glen that is a viable route for sure however they do not always have 100LL which makes for a difficult time finding fuel.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on June 23, 2016, 11:26:13 am
Before I go I'll have to call ahead.  Won't be any time soon as I'm already booked up but been a dream of mine one day to make that trip.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on June 23, 2016, 12:05:07 pm
I've heard that it's common at very remote airports for you to have to buy your fuel, in advance, in 55gal barrels. What you don't take with you becomes theirs.

I've never done the route so I can't confirm that.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on June 23, 2016, 01:07:26 pm
If it comes in 55 gallon barrels, I shudder to think of the cost!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on June 23, 2016, 01:16:51 pm
This writer's peak price in 2013 was $16.50/gallon.  :o

http://flyingthrulife.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/MMOPA-Spring-2013_New.pdf

He mentioned that the leftover from 55 gallon barrels goes "to the next guy" but it's certainly not yours, and there's no saying they won't have put the previous guys' excess into their camp heaters before you get there.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on June 23, 2016, 03:32:44 pm
Thanks for the link to that article.  Good stuff.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on June 23, 2016, 04:19:44 pm
Here is a nice story about Jerrie Cobb doing it in a 680E... although she did have a 90 gallon ferry tank.

https://books.google.com/books?id=An1u3X80zRAC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=jerrie+cobb+680E&source=bl&ots=F0UwYU3Zks&sig=Q6ltax1tnfhzou0zys74L6lVLc8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzjIP7-77NAhUGzWMKHdbbDP8Q6AEIUjAM#v=onepage&q=jerrie%20cobb%20680E&f=false
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Dhavillandpilot on June 24, 2016, 12:39:25 am
Just a tip when transiting Greenland use the mid point airport not the famous southern one if you want a guarantee of fuel.

Also I forget which day but I think if you arrive on a Sunday you get an automatic $1000 landing fee

Check with the AIP's
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on July 07, 2016, 07:30:15 pm
Nothing "ready" that can't be unready in aviation..

The problem with many of the earlier birds (and this was the case with the 520 as well), is that the Aero Commander factory kind of did a little like they pleased between individual airframes. Stuff could get moved, or a part or electrical system could be slightly tweaked and not completely match the specs. The paperwork to support any minor changes just wasn't there in those days.

After further engine runs, the EGT's on on particular side was not consistent. We had overhauled the EGT meter, the compensator, then finally got a new EGT probe entirely (two probes were burned to a crisp). Factory tells Morris that when they installed the new digital EGT meters they should disconnect the old EGT transducer boxes sitting at the back. There's a terminator switch on the right side inside cabin, the drawing says. Morris tears interior out, but can't fint it. According to spec and design it should be there, but it isn't. In the end he unplugged the old transducer boxes, but when he now ran engines they also disconnected the HP compensator, which means the EGT's are not reading correct. So now we've got a terminator for the transducers, so that he can terminate the EGT portion of them only, and leave everything else in place... Morris is convinced this is the last problem we'll encounter. And thank god for people like him, who have enough knowledge and won't stop until it's solved. Imagine this problem with a normal A&P shop without any prior AC knowledge? It would literally never be resolved.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on July 07, 2016, 07:44:08 pm
I wouldn't necessarily blame the factory (although I wouldn't absolve them either). 50 year old airplanes have seen a lot of stuff installed, uninstalled, hooked up, unhooked, etc. etc. and that can really result in things being messed up.

Good to hear that things are moving along! When do you plan to fly?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on July 07, 2016, 07:50:26 pm
That is true.

Should be all done next week, but I have a job in Vancouver until the 18th. Hopefully I can start training after that. But I'm sure some other problem will have turned up by then.... ;)

Been an aircraft owner since 2011, and a pilot much longer than that, but never been to Oshkosh. Every year I've sworn to go and every year something comes up. Not looking good for this year either.  But I'll really try to get to the Commander fly-in!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on July 10, 2016, 09:59:40 am
Good to hear you're getting close.  I wish you were going to Oshkosh as we're going up Thur-Sun with the Commander.  Doens't look like we'll be making the flyin in Sept due to the hotel that I don't think anyone has addressed.  Morris said they were working on it but never heard anything else about it.

Really hate that I'm going to miss it.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on July 23, 2016, 01:23:56 pm
Canon plug terminator has arrived, now all we're waiting on is a the schematic of the transducer so we know which ports to terminate. We only want to terminate the EGT Temp part, nothing else. Unfortunately, this schematic comes from some third party who is slow in sending it and who doesn't realize that I will literally come over turn into the Hulk if he doesn't! Enough waiting! No more! This plane needs to get flying before I go insane.

 :o :)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on July 24, 2016, 02:33:39 pm
So close! I'm really looking forward to seeing some flying pictures, or maybe a video or two!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 17, 2016, 07:12:55 pm
Ok, ok, ok - it looks like it finally is coming to an end... ::)

Last week Morris had rigged one engine fully, but then a rod end was worn on the other and had to be ordered and installed. After installing that nothing lined up again, so kind of had to start over with all the rigging. Today I hear he's done with that and everything lines up perfectly on the ground - temps, position of levers, power etc. Only thing left to do now is do a FF check in the air, pull back to the stops to check so that one engine isn't producing too much (which can make her squirrely on landing). He's trying to get a guy come up and do the test flying this week. I have some work anyway, so by end of next week I'm hoping there isn't any new bad news and we can finally get this old girl out of there!

Fingers crossed, wish me luck!  :-\

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on October 17, 2016, 07:44:39 pm
Maybe someone up there will be good enough to take a video of the event for you... keepen-em crossed
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on October 17, 2016, 08:00:01 pm
My only issue with this Adam is that the trip to your home isn't far enough for us to get a long cross country feature film out of it.

But great news.  You'll have to fly her over to my place for a visit.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on October 17, 2016, 10:56:18 pm
Good to hear!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 29, 2016, 03:54:23 pm
Looks like I'm going up mid-week next week to get some air under her wings!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on October 30, 2016, 09:19:57 am
Awesome, get video and pictures of the entire event as this should be news worthy.  I bet Morris is going to cry when you leave.  And not for sorrow :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: EricDapp on November 01, 2016, 08:10:54 pm
Adam, are you going to be at Morris's on Wednesday? I'm in napa and I might come over to Stockton tomorrow.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 01, 2016, 08:49:01 pm
I was hoping to be, but the instructor is now not answering his cell, so everything is kinda up in the air. He was supposed to go up today and do the flight test idle with Morris, so that we could adjust any last minute adjustments tomorrow and then fly her down that evening. Now it might have to be on Thu, Fri. Or never, with my luck.  :(

I might go up tomorrow or Thursday anyway. Things are easier to push along when I'm physically there.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 02, 2016, 09:21:03 am
If it makes you feel any better, I had to replace 3 cylinders on my right engine this past weekend.  I got her out to run her yesterday and the #5 cylinder won't heat up.  So I was quite depressed yesterday as well, I'm just too stupid to give up. :-)

Headed out to try another runup so wish me luck... :-)

glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: butchm on November 02, 2016, 10:59:51 am
Glenn, when I donated my 680FP to the college they also received two complete engines and a box containing most of the parts for another. if you are running short on engine parts might want to call them.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 02, 2016, 11:20:24 am
Thanks, I'll give it another try.  They didn't sound too keen on selling it when I spoke to them but will try again.  They were supposed to call me back but never did.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 02, 2016, 11:49:10 am
Ouch, Glenn. I feel your pain. On the 520 I finally just did a complete top overhaul as I got sick having one cylinder pop after another.

Looks like I'm going up on Friday now and training the whole weekend. We'll see......
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 03, 2016, 07:22:21 am
Good luck and yes that is basically what I'm doing.  Replaced 3 cylinders this week and in another few will do the other 3.  It is so much fun :-(

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: EricDapp on November 05, 2016, 11:56:31 pm
Adam we ready for your pirep.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 06, 2016, 01:00:47 am
Well, it's been a kind of frustrating two days with a few bright spots..

Steve was kind enough to drop me off at Morris's. Instructor Andreas was driving up from LA, and because he'd left his phone at Harris Ranch and had to return for it, he got there too late to do a test flight that afternoon. So we stayed the night. All we were going to do was an idle fuel test flight to see that she behaved and then head for LA to start the training.

Well, I'm still here in Stockton...  :-\

Anyway, we stayed the night and this morning there was of course ground fog. After that had lifted, we did a high speed taxi, which went OK. It was time for the first flight in 2 years! Took off, did a right turning climb up to 10500ft to check the idle fuel flows. Plane behaved well on climb and cruise except for the ratty old radios that are garbled and bleed between freq a lot. Not only that, they're impossible to understand, with a million little added switches and stuff all over the panel that does god knows what. More on that later.

But I digress. Back to the flight. Temps, FF etc all good, but when it came to check the idle fuel flows, it kind of went south. You're supposed to hold 120kts, gear out, full flaps and note the descent rate, hp and FF's. We were descending 2500ft/min with FF too high and engines producing too much power. It should be around 1500ft/min. On top of that, she wanted to bank right, which means the left engine is producing too much power or the right too low. On the ground Morris turned up the right engine 5 clicks, and the left down 1 clicks. Next test flight the IFF's was worse and we were now descending 2700ft/min. So something wasn't right. She also idled high on the ground and Andreas had to ride her on the gate or even beta, to not gain too much speed. And the landings were "sporty", as she squirreled and stopped flying when power rolled off.

So back in hangar to check blade angles. Somehow they've changed after all the rigging, so now they hd to be set correctly again. But by that time we were out of daylight and Morris was eager to get home to dinner. I had a friend over from Sweden waiting for me at my home, as well as my little newborn, so was really under pressure to get the old girl back to LA. Just frustrating, making excuses to my friend and my wife. But here we are, staying another night at a shitty Howard Johnson (can't find a decent hotel in the Stockton area for love or money on the weekend). We'll do new test flight in morning, but will probably have to redo the fuel settings again as with the new blade angles, everything that end is probably out of whack.

But the positive was that she flies nice and smooth, produces a lot of power and the engines start very cool and nice, so that's good. But the panel is a disaster. Unfortunately my plan of flying her for a few months and then do the panel will not work. She needs to go in for panel and avionics work pretty much right after training, or else I'll go nuts. As it is now, only the backup GS/VOR works and can track anything, and since there's no legal GPS in it, I can not do any serious IFR. At best I could transit a layer, but that' about as comfortable I'd feel about it. And you hear the LOC identifier morse code on every freq in the background.. Still haven't figured out how to shut that off. Only way to shut the noise up is to turn the VOR/LOC off on the head... Also, pressurization isn't going much above 2.5psi, so there are obviously some other leaks we have not yet found. All off this can of course be fixed - and will be fixed - it's just frustrating after so much time to have to go pretty much straight into another shop...

But hey, that's how it is with old airplanes. It's not like I haven't been here before.  8)

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on November 06, 2016, 07:53:21 am
Hopefully this morning will bring a fresh view and Morris will sync it all as it should be and you will be back in LA tonight with your friend, family and big bird. If she flies well... the panel will morph into what works for you and  you will be flying again. Then Howard Johnsons will just be a distant memory ;D
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on November 06, 2016, 12:12:28 pm
I see the weather is good this morning so hopefully you can get some flights in and find the right formula.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 06, 2016, 12:40:16 pm
Great to see her back in the air!

On the subject of the LOC morse code bleeding through, I think there might be some sort of "VOR MON" switch somewhere, either on the audio panels or on the VOR (or COM?) itself. Anyway, you might look for that. At least, that's what I remember from the Jet Commanders 30 years ago...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 06, 2016, 02:27:17 pm
There is probably a similar switch for the ADF as well.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 06, 2016, 08:53:10 pm
Hey, we're all just glad to see you unglued and in the air again.  :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 07, 2016, 08:32:30 pm
Did air work today with instructor. Slow flight, simulated single engine flying, landings etc. Went really well – starting to get a feel for it. Seems easier to land than my old Commander. Still trying to get the front wheel down smoothly without going too heavy into beta range and slam her down – it’s a fine balance. Day after tomorrow were doing full shutdowns and single engine approaches.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 08, 2016, 07:12:51 am
So I assume Morris got it all tweaked properly?  Do you have her home?

Great news on the flying, now plan a trip to GA and do us a cross country video with the family. :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 08, 2016, 08:18:15 am
Yeah, got her home! After blade angles had been set and 3rd test flight, all performed well and we could finally leave wretched Stockton behind. As I climbed up to 17000ft, the diff dropped to just below 2psi, so once all the hoopla is over we'll have to start attacking that. I need at least 4psi, so I can get into low 20's and be comfortable. It's probably the floor and the wing roots leaking, as we fixed the leaks around the windows and the pedals.

On way back we did 235kts and around 59gal/hr, but I was pulled back a little. A little higher, I'm confident I can get 250kts and 54gal/hr out of her. Which is pretty good for a Dash 1. Yeah, my wing is too small to fly high with, but on the other hand it has less drag, so the speed difference between a 690 and this isn't that much less, considering the 690 has 250hp more.

But for now, I just want to fly her for a little. I've been sitting on my non-flying a** for too long, it's time to catch up!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on November 08, 2016, 08:41:01 am
CAN I GET AN "AMEN"!!!

Check the floor just inside the entry door as that is where most of them leak in the floor area.  Also check the seat rails to see if any have a crack in them as they will most likely be leaking just under the area of the crack in the rail.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 08, 2016, 11:18:33 am
Awesome on everything, except the leaks of course.  I'm here tearing my supercharge and pump apart to see if I can get them going.  My supercharge is extemely loose and going to replace with another one I have that is tighter.  Also found problem with my pump that drives it and working to find a few parts for it so I can get them both back in the plane.  I'm pretty sure combined they were most of my problem though.

Great news on your bird being airborn again!!


Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 08, 2016, 12:30:17 pm
Awesome! I think 4.2 is the max diff anyway, right?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on November 08, 2016, 07:25:40 pm
It flies!  Thumbs up!  Be careful working those new kinks out her Adam. Flight idle is ok if it's a bit low - 2,000 fpm dirty at 100 kias should be about right. If it's not nts'ing and it's not yawing, you have a good start. Too high a flight idle and you float.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 08, 2016, 10:12:30 pm
Seems to be doing alright, Bruce. We took a day off today, but trained in it all day yesterday and I had pretty good luck with landings. Approach on final about 100hp, 100kts. Slightly reduce on very short final and then walk off the power to the stops during rundown. As mains touch, instructor wants me to go to props and reduce them to increase drag (which makes sense), then I return to power levers and push them slightly past gate and into beta range as front wheel touches. And yes, I've already done it prematurely a few times and slammed the front down... :o

Is that good procedure, Bruce?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 09, 2016, 01:54:48 pm
He wants you to put the condition levers in low as soon as the mains touch? That seems a bit quick.

Maybe the 680V is different than the 690s and 695s, but in those airplanes the AFM recommends leaving the condition levers in high until you are ready to turn off the runway. Now, that's a bit extreme (and not what I do), but the reason for it is that if you need reverse, you're not supposed to do that in low.

Personally, I touch down, nosewheel on the runway, everything looks okay (i.e. I'm not about to run off the end), and then I pull them back. In gusty winds, it's also better to pull them back more quickly.

But again, maybe that experience doesn't translate to the 680V.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 09, 2016, 08:40:43 pm
No, I think they're the same, Don. Your way sounds correct. It's just that when I put CL's forward, plane starts pulling a lot on lineup, so one is adding a lot of thrust, which doesn't sound like a good thing to have in there when landing. I think that's why he wants me to pull them back sooner. But today we also did short field landings where I went into reverse immediately without touching CL's, and that was a wild but fun ride. I managed to lock the wheels up and almost got a flat spot on one, but got out of it just in time.  ::)

Did single engine work today. Non-event.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on November 10, 2016, 12:43:03 am
I don't think you want to put CL in low right after touchdown.  If you happen to need reverse in a hurry and you are in low rpm there is the possibility of bogging down the engine.

Too much fuel and not enough air.  The engine can be destroyed that way.  It only takes once.  Why not just go into beta?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on November 10, 2016, 01:05:09 pm
Seems to be doing alright, Bruce. We took a day off today, but trained in it all day yesterday and I had pretty good luck with landings. Approach on final about 100hp, 100kts. Slightly reduce on very short final and then walk off the power to the stops during rundown. As mains touch, instructor wants me to go to props and reduce them to increase drag (which makes sense), then I return to power levers and push them slightly past gate and into beta range as front wheel touches. And yes, I've already done it prematurely a few times and slammed the front down... :o

Is that good procedure, Bruce?

I'll get back to you with more when I have a minute but I would absolutely not do that.  You are asking for bog down.  It's real. Last guy I know who was taught that burned up an engine on landing.  Not to be a downer but he also died in the plane.  As Steve and Don suggest, Get the power levers into ground as soon as the nose touches but leave the props in high.. You shouldn't have much thrust at flight idle. Yours is Woodward or bendix?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 10, 2016, 04:13:05 pm
OK, good to know. I have Woodwards.

Seems like it would be OK to do that if you plan on not using reverse at all. But not as part of any reverse usage. But I have to say they have a  lot of power when I put props forward. I can be on beta mode, complete standstill, by threshold, and when I push props forward, she immediately accelerates. That's what I do to line up, actually. I get clearance for takeoff and all I do advance CL's to start moving into position, I don't touch the power until I'm lined up.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 10, 2016, 06:31:51 pm
That means that you don't have the power levers pulled far enough back. You should be able to sit there with the props in high rpm and no brakes, and not move. Heck, you should be able to back up, but I wouldn't recommend that.

You shouldn't have to use the brakes at all in a Turbo Commander, unless you want to (or are going someplace really, really short).

In really hot weather, you want to keep some forward flow going through the engines to keep the oil temps reasonable, so that is something to think about.

You're not keeping the power levers at flight idle on the ground for some reason, are you? Or forward of the gate?

OK, good to know. I have Woodwards.

Seems like it would be OK to do that if you plan on not using reverse at all. But not as part of any reverse usage. But I have to say they have a  lot of power when I put props forward. I can be on beta mode, complete standstill, by threshold, and when I push props forward, she immediately accelerates. That's what I do to line up, actually. I get clearance for takeoff and all I do advance CL's to start moving into position, I don't touch the power until I'm lined up.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 11, 2016, 01:48:04 am
Yes, Don, it could be that simple. Maybe I'm not pulling them far back. It just feels "uncomfortable" to bee too far back, feels like they're "cavatating", if that makes sense. So I've kept them at a place where they still give forward thrust, but where it's manageable with brakes and gives a relaxed amble at taxi speeds.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 11, 2016, 11:44:57 am
I think I see where you are coming from.

It's not at all like a piston-- you should be able to manage the entire taxi using just the power levers-- including turning. For many people, it's easier to turn on the ground using power than the nosewheel steering!

I once had the steering actuator break off in flight in a 1000. The nose gear wouldn't come down, and we tried cycling it a bunch, and eventually tried cycling it while pressing on the steering, and BANG! I got a green light. When I landed and taxied in, it all seemed fine to me... until I got out and saw the steering actuator arm hanging down next to the nosewheel.

So that gives you an idea how important steering is vs. engines.

So keep them pulled back, and when you want to slow down, pull them back a bit farther-- you won't hurt anything. The way you'll hurt the engines is if you suddenly jerk the power levers full back while in low RPM. Slowly moving them back is fine, as is idling with them back.

The difference really is this: in a piston, the throttles are controlling RPM. Move them forward, RPM increases, and you go faster. Pull them back and you go slower, but the engines might die or you might foul the plugs. However, you always have some forward thrust.

In a 331, in beta and at low RPM, the power lever doesn't control RPM. What happens is that the underspeed governor takes care of RPM, and the power lever just controls prop blade angle. So you push it forward, and the props take a bigger bite and as a result they slow down a tiny bit and the underspeed governor gives it more fuel to keep the RPM up where it's supposed to be. The result is the airplane moves forward.

Pull back a bit, and the props take less of a bite (and eventually go to flat pitch), RPM increases, and the underspeed governor reduces the fuel to, again, keep the RPM where it's supposed to be.

So what you are really controlling is prop pitch. There is no potential issue with bogging the engine down-- at least in normal operations.

Now, if you jerk it into full reverse, the props really dig in (in reverse), the underspeed governor adds a bunch of fuel, but guess what? The props are pushing air away from the inlet! So that fuel gets dumped in there all at once, and there isn't enough air. Bad things happen.

If you slowly move it into reverse, fuel comes in slowly, air still comes in, and no problem.

Does that help?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on November 12, 2016, 12:20:50 pm
Here is another way to look at it.

CL in low set underspeed governor to 65%.  That's a comfortable setting on the ground but, if you pull too much reverse and send a bunch of fuel into the engine then that 65% setting is to low to handle it. 

When CL are in set in high the underspeed governor setting is changed to 95% .  At that higher minimum setting the engine can handle all the power you can throw at it.

It's a habit pattern that might come back to bite you.  If you always select low on the CL at touchdown then I think you are setting yourself up for a potential gotcha.

It would be a unusual situation, something like you think a runway is only wet but come to find out its icy!
You start sliding and grab a bunch of reverse,  you could easily throw too much fuel into the engine and cause damage.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 12, 2016, 02:35:29 pm
Yes, thanks. This is helpful.

During our last sessions we've done it they correct way now. Landing and going to beta to slow down. It's been fine - yesterday I landed at Corona in less than 2/3'rd of runway, so getting a hang of it.. :o

However, there is still that little area which I'm not entirely comfortable with: After slowing with reversers, I come out of reverses below 40kts (so as to not blow FOD forward). But as I then come out of reverse, and go to the idle stops with power levers, now plane almost accelerates again as idles with props forward on my plane produces a lot of thrust. Sure, that goes away mostly when I pull CL's back to low RPM, but there's still that little gap in between where plane actually wants to accelerate again. So I see only two explanations:

1. Maybe my idle fuel flows are just to high.

2. Technique/experience - maybe I should never go to flight idle at all after reverse? That would cure the problem. But then, how do I know I'm not blowing FOD forward if I'm just "a little in reverse". At least on my plane, the Beta lights come on as soon as I go past the gate. Now does Beta mean reverse, or does it just mean "you're now entering zone where power levers control blade angle"?

Put in another way - do you guys ever go to flight idle after reverse or do you just stay in beta range fro rollout? Somehow, in my mind, idle fuel flow, PL against the gate, should produce no thrust. But maybe that's not how they're designed.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Patrick Kenney on November 12, 2016, 03:07:04 pm
If your setup is same to mine,  which it sounds like it is: with the power levers, above the gates is flight mode, behind the gates is ground mode. Within ground mode there is a range of blade angles, at the top you will be generating a reasonable amount of forward thrust, in the middle you will be flat which generates zero thrust (but a good deal of drag on landings, so it almost sounds and feels like reverse), pulled towards you, beyond flat, you will be generating reverse thrust. There is no reason during a landing, after going behind the gates, to be pushing the power levers back up, past the stop, back into flight mode (absent needing to take off again or wanting to practice high speed taxying). If you want to ease up on the amount of reverse thrust, if you are reverse portion of the range of motion in ground mode, or reduce the drag a bit, if you are in flat zero thrust postion, move the power levers forward towards the forward thrust portion of the ground mode (still behind the gates), not over the gates and into flight mode. The sensation is about easing up on pulling back, for me, rather than about adding thrust. You shouldn’t need to leave ground mode when you are on the ground and not trying to take off. 
Once things are under control and I'm well slowed and confident I won't need any reverse because things are squirrelly, then I touch the condition lever and pull it back to to low. Heard the story of the other fellow who toasted his engine popping into reverse in low rpm, during my training, from an instructor. This was prior to the crash...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Patrick Kenney on November 12, 2016, 03:24:42 pm
I found the last bit of the landings after touchdown to be the hardest bit of learning to fly the Turbo Commander. One thing that I found useful was flying over to a quiet really long runway like Southern California Logistics and doing high speed taxying down the runway, practicing transitioning from going fast with the power levers in flight mode, to slowing it down using the drag of the blades in ground mode and reverse and getting the hang of that transition, over and over again.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Patrick Kenney on November 12, 2016, 03:29:00 pm
Take everything I write with the appropriate number of grains of salt, as I am probably the lowest timed actively flying turbine commander pilot on the planet, other than Adam  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 12, 2016, 05:59:25 pm
To clarify, "BETA" means you are in beta mode-- i.e. thrust lever is controlling pitch.

I agree with what Patrick wrote-- in normal ground operations, you are always behind the flight idle gate. No reason to go forward of it at all.

So, your understanding is incorrect-- with Woodward governors, sitting at the flight idle stop will give you around 90% RPM and considerable forward thrust.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 12, 2016, 07:40:11 pm
OK, this is good info. Now I know there's not something wrong with the plane or fuel settings - it's just my technique. I will cure myself quickly of my imaginary need to be above the stops after landing and just stay in beta mode the whole time.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 25, 2016, 01:11:02 pm
OK, almost done now. Today I should be able to fly her back to home base by myself.

She'd been down for a week trying to fix a LOC that was not working, but it turned out to not be an easy fix, and since I'm doing panel over Xmas, I didn't want to spend money on fixing the old radios. So on Tuesday we continued our short field landings and takeoffs. Had one attention-getting sequence when we went in to Corona. Pretty heavy reverse thrust, but as it slowed down started veering towards the weeds. Instinctually I eased up on the reverse and applied brakes, but one wheel locked up and it became a squirrely dance. It was OK in the end, but I think I might change my procedure for reverse and not stay so deep into it as speed decreases and rudder authority goes away. I'd been thought to never go below 40kts with reverse for risk of FOD and erosion, but I think I'll ease it towards ground idle earlier as speed bleeds off. In any case, we were stopped in 2000ft, so that's plenty short.

It seems to me that unless reverse thrust is perfectly matched, it has the ability to head you in the wrong direction pretty quick when you don't have rudder authority anymore. And regular nose steering is to slow to compensate for it.

What are your thoughts on this?

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 26, 2016, 12:55:00 am
Well, well, well!

Finally flew her back by myself tonight from Chino. By the time we were done, endorsed, signed off, refueled etc, it was dark. Hadn't planned on my first solo flight to be at night, but what the heck, it's all good. Might as well get my night currency in! Instrument and post lights work fine on panel, except for perhaps the most important: the main AI and HSI were dark as night. Internal light probably broken. It was clear VFR, so no problem, but still a good reminder not to launch into night IFR without fixing that....

She's finally home and I'm finally allowed to fly her myself. Longest wait. I'm a very happy guy today!  ;D

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on November 26, 2016, 07:18:22 am
See.... Howard Johnson's is not even a memory now...
Clearly YOU are one happy camper.. and rightfully so.
Enjoy the moment and live the dream.
Now.. what about some new videos!!!
Congrats Adam... well done
 8)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 26, 2016, 08:25:47 am
Seriously,  I'm wondering about the videos myself, I thought that is what you do for a living or something?  I was expecting some "Training in a Commander" Series or something.

Great news on getting her home and still waiting on when you'll be arriving in GA... :-). We need one of those cross country videos soon and we're almost as far away as one can get.  Have bed and kitchen at the hanger and you can land on your first grass strip here. 

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Badger on November 26, 2016, 11:28:54 am
You guys are having way too much fun.  I'm jealous. 
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 26, 2016, 08:36:43 pm
Congratulations! That is great news!

Where are you going to be based?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 26, 2016, 10:12:22 pm
Gonna be based at El Monte. Although when I rocked up yesterday night I noticed there was a Comanche in my spot that looked very permanent.. They probably figured I wouldn't come back ever after paying for my spot for 2 years. I'll have to have a little word with the manager on Monday...  ???
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 27, 2016, 10:27:19 am
Good old El Monte. I rented a T-hangar there in the mid-1980s. Has the neighborhood improved at all?

I always remember that as one of the hardest airports to see, because it's basically just a runway painted on concrete, in a sea of other concrete!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 29, 2016, 01:45:43 am
Good old El Monte. I rented a T-hangar there in the mid-1980s. Has the neighborhood improved at all?

I always remember that as one of the hardest airports to see, because it's basically just a runway painted on concrete, in a sea of other concrete!

It is tricky to spot, even for me who's been based there for years. Yeah, El Monte now has a majorly Asian population which is overspill from the Arcadia area. So it's become a lot safer. Still some working class areas around the 10 freeway, but it's basically your average suburbia these days. El Monte recently changed name to San Gabriel Valley Airport (a mouthful!) to try to distance itself from it's past. But the tower is still El Monte Twr.

BTW, Morris scored me a brand new set of winglets with the STC paperwork yesterday from an estate sale of a 681. Less than half price compared to the new ones, so a good deal. I'll be putting them on the spring and sorting the extremely annoying join of the nav and strobe lights on mine. Can't turn on one without the other. Funnily enough, my old 520 had the same idiotic system. To cheap to run two wires out to the tips, apparently.  >:('

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on November 29, 2016, 07:53:43 am
I'm sure you're aware but those winglets don't actually perform any function other than looking cool. :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on November 29, 2016, 07:57:01 am
Looking "cool" on the ramp is always a good thing... especially in EL MONTE. 8)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 01, 2016, 03:46:42 am
I'm sure you're aware but those winglets don't actually perform any function other than looking cool. :-)

Glenn

Oh, I know! They don't do shit!

Story goes that instead of doing at least 20% of chord as was advised by the engineers, the marketing department at Gulfstream just wanted it high enough to slap the Gulfstream logo on it. So that's how it is.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 11, 2016, 07:52:35 am
Got my custom inlet and exhaust plugs from Bruce's yesterday, and they look great! Can't wait to put them on and get rid of the old nasty stuff.

Also dropped off stomach-churningly big deposit check at avionics and interior shop, so they can get a head start on ordering all the stuff. They'll start on her next week and hopefully not take as long as my mechanic did.. Chose an Avidyne IF540 in the end. Seems to be the best system for me at this point. Will put a L3 Genesis in as backup AI, but it also has synthetic vision, so is like a little mini-EFIS.

And my sweet little 5 month old boy went for his first ride. It was a very short ride du to bumps, but he didn't mind - he was fast asleep before the bleeding wheels left the ground! I hope we can go on more and longer trips in the new year.

No new squawks except for it seems like both the SPR's (Start Pressure Regulators) are leaking a little bit of fuel through the vent. Though it'd go away as I flew her more regularly, but it's not happened. Will have them sent off for overhaul.


Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on December 11, 2016, 10:18:21 am
Looks like your son is well on his way being your new co-pilot... and you have lots of fun years coming up. Enjoy them
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 11, 2016, 11:08:33 am
Looks like your son is well on his way being your new co-pilot... and you have lots of fun years coming up. Enjoy them

I'm hoping he will have his Multi IR by the time he's 17, so we can pickup that other Ted Smith design - the Westwind II!!  ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 11, 2016, 02:07:35 pm
So great to see the old girl flying again! Have fun-- you should take a quick trip over to Palm Springs or somewhere.

The kids grow up so fast! I was looking at a picture of my wife and son with my Aerostar when he was just a baby... this year, I dropped him off at college in the Commander!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on December 12, 2016, 03:45:36 pm
I'm assuming the wife went too but you didn't mention her.  Did she enjoy the flight?

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 12, 2016, 04:39:52 pm
I'm assuming the wife went too but you didn't mention her.  Did she enjoy the flight?

Glenn

No, she was the one who wanted to land! Too bumpy, she kept motioning!!  :o

Today we flew up to Napa, for a little meet, dinner and wine with friends. Amazing time machines, aircraft. Getting here any other way is a day's work. My first light IFR in her just completed. Brutal headwind, but the old girl did fine.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on December 12, 2016, 04:46:16 pm
And here I was worried that DONV was referring to the wife....  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 12, 2016, 11:28:59 pm
I would guess that the 680V is older than Adam's wife-- is that right?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 13, 2016, 03:05:24 am
Much older!  ;D
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on December 15, 2016, 08:07:56 am
So cool you are finally flying her.  I'm also glad it is out of Morris's hands because now he can finally get a few things done for the rest of us.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 15, 2016, 08:16:16 am
Ha, Glenn!

Just finished a return trip to Napa day before yesterday and yesterday. Slow as molasses going up with a 50kts headwind at 16000ft. I was seeing 185-190kts GS. Going back today I was seeing 260-270kts GS at 17000ft, much better! I have no way of knowing the TAS as my instrumentation is lacking, but a rough E6B calculation puts it in the 235-240kts zone. Burned about 410-415pph, which is roughly 62gal/hr.

I'm still hoping that once the pressurization is fixed, she'll be able to do 250kts at FL250.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 15, 2016, 11:57:05 am
Just think of it this way: 185-190 would have been what the 520 did with a pretty good tailwind, right!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on December 16, 2016, 08:34:31 am
Doing the math you're getting 3.8 miles to the gallon and I'm around 4.5 so not too bad.  Also, you'll most likely get better the higher you go where I'm limited to probably 18k or so.  I might be lucky to get to 190kts but that will be my top.  At 235 you're most likely covering almost 1000 miles for each leg while I'm down around 740.  I'm also supposed to be carrying 235 gallons of gas but actually only have 196 due to the bladders not being installed very well.

Add in the extra performance and larger cabin and I don't think you have much to complain about.  It is amazing looking at the difference between the numbers in the book and the numbers on the panel in real life though.  My plane claims a much higher cruise number and also claims a 1200nm range.  I'm not sure how they came up with either of the numbers but I don't see it happening.

Anyway,  can't wait to see the new panel and interior when you're done.  I'm sure she's going to make a quite perfect traveling machine.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on December 16, 2016, 08:37:11 am
OH,  And I forgot to mention.  You don't have to worry about the valves, spark plugs, leads, mags, cylinders, rockers and many more items breaking on a daily basis. :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 16, 2016, 09:50:29 am
That is true Glenn, but if a FCU fails I'm staring at $28K!!  :o

Yeah, hopefully this will turn out to be a good and reliable traveling machine. The range is pretty good, but I do say that the later Jetprop ranges would be better for me eventually. I often do LA to Vancouver for business, and it would be great to be able to do that direct. Little tight to do that with 1000nm range. I could add the drop tanks, but afraid it will eat a lot of speed as well as make plane esthetically unpleasant.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on December 16, 2016, 01:27:24 pm
When coordinated with the aircraft paint scheme I think slipper tanks look pretty cool. As for the the speed lost I am told it is not that much (5-7kts). Which over the distance LA to Vancouver would be more effective than a fuel stop and time plus extra fuel used climbing back out.
Just my one cent worth.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on December 16, 2016, 06:02:45 pm
Yeah, they don't look that bad for sure.  Just wonder how many extra take offs and landing you have to make to pay the purchase and installation costs off. :-). Just kidding, if we were actually trying to justify our purchases we should all go back to driving cars...  BTW, those are the things you sit in to go between home and the airport...

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 16, 2016, 07:03:02 pm
I don't think much of the slipper tanks, although in the right situation I suppose they could be useful. As I recall from a past discussion, the STC was 690 only. Adam can stop in Hillsboro and get pretty cheap fuel...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on December 16, 2016, 10:41:49 pm
I don't think much of the slipper tanks, although in the right situation I suppose they could be useful. As I recall from a past discussion, the STC was 690 only. Adam can stop in Hillsboro and get pretty cheap fuel...

Are they for sure 690 only? I've gotten conflicting info saying they're approved for all up until Jetprops. Does anyone know?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 17, 2016, 01:14:39 pm
How much pressurization are you getting?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 18, 2016, 09:24:59 am
2 psi.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 18, 2016, 03:27:54 pm
Is that due to lack of air flow, or leaks in the cabin?

And, does the Century conversion give you bleed air pressurization, or do you still have the supercharger system, kind of like Glenn's?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 18, 2016, 04:14:02 pm
It's cabin leaks. I have new pedal and column boots and most of the window leaks have been fixed, so it's most likely around the wing root area. But could also be the door seal.

Yes, the Century conversion converts to bleed air like the later models have. The 681 and the first 690 model all have the 4.2psi system.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 21, 2017, 01:44:34 am
Here is some cut together footage of first few test flights end of last year.

https://youtu.be/l64cd5Y0GWA
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on January 21, 2017, 11:53:53 am
I really like both videos!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on January 25, 2017, 10:15:39 am
Those videos you do are great! Loved it.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Badger on January 25, 2017, 01:45:15 pm
Great videos, Adam.  Thanks for sharing them.  Your saga sounds long and involved (and a little costly) but it's gotta be fun!  My commander is considerably smaller and less capable than yours, but, like you (and others), I absolutely LOVE each moment I am inside her.   I flew for about two hours yesterday, doing a lot of single engine work. 

I am looking forward to the time we can all try to meet somewhere with our commanders on the same ramp. 

As of now, I am planning on going to Sun n Fun, Oshkosh, and Reno (and anything else I can fit into my schedule).

Again, thanks for sharing your story, beginning with the great photos in the first post.

ed
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 06, 2017, 09:51:46 pm
I had a chance to look at 4622E's panel this afternoon-- looks like she's getting prop overhauls.

Looks about the same as your old panel, without the fancy flight director. Everything is basically original except for a King GPS and a forest service radio on the pedestal.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on February 10, 2017, 08:17:19 am
That is true Glenn, but if a FCU fails I'm staring at $28K!!  :o

Yeah, hopefully this will turn out to be a good and reliable traveling machine. The range is pretty good, but I do say that the later Jetprop ranges would be better for me eventually. I often do LA to Vancouver for business, and it would be great to be able to do that direct. Little tight to do that with 1000nm range. I could add the drop tanks, but afraid it will eat a lot of speed as well as make plane esthetically unpleasant.
What would your payload be with full fuel and full slipper tanks? That would be another 700lbs. I was looking at a 690B with slippers and I figured it had less than 200lbs left over with slippers full.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 10, 2017, 10:05:00 am
Yeah, not much. My plane is a little heavy as it is, but I've managed to shed about 150lbs of forest fighting stuff, radios, cabling and avionics so far. Obviously, weight of new avionics have to go in and then some sound insulation etc in conjunction with interior. I don't have the W&B here, but seem to recall the empty weight to be mid 6400lbs or something. Max ramp is 9450lbs. So useful with full slipper would be about 100lbs!

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 12, 2017, 07:48:30 pm
Here are two short videos of a Russian 681 taking off in Siberia. Nice to see.

https://vimeo.com/202605081

https://vimeo.com/202605074
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on February 13, 2017, 09:38:35 am
Finally some production quality video from Adam.  Thanks for sharing and can't wait to see the final product.

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 05, 2017, 03:47:59 pm
Winglets are on!

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on October 05, 2017, 04:47:49 pm
How did you end up switching the strobes?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 05, 2017, 05:17:54 pm
Morris came up with genius solution, actually. He wired them to the ice lights. That saved a lot of man hours. Now I'm on a quest to find a LED replacement for the ice light, so I can reduce draw.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on October 05, 2017, 07:18:17 pm
Did you figure out the pressurization leaks?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 05, 2017, 10:28:12 pm
Changed wing root seals already, re-sealing windows and fixed leak in environmental system, so getting closer. Floor is the only place left to seal. Door also leaked a little, but Morris says seal is good, so trying to figure out where seal doesn't connect.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on October 23, 2017, 10:41:08 pm
Any updates, Adam?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 25, 2017, 03:43:32 pm
I've been in Europe for work, but she's still there. I'm hoping they're done by the time I get back from my next trip. Can't be much left to do by now, but don't want to jinx it...  :o
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 01, 2017, 04:27:22 pm
This thread needs an update!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 02, 2017, 04:17:47 pm
Windows have been sent, now they just need to be put in and she's ready for pressurization test flight. But you know how these things go - they forgot to send them on Friday, or the cabin doesn't pressurise more than 2psi, or...

Jaded, me? Not at all.  ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 16, 2017, 12:48:43 pm
Just like I predicted, shipping of the windows has turned into a 3 week, $1600 ordeal. Shipping company refused packaging then took upon themselves to charge $1600 on credit card on file, just because it's Christmas presumably, for something that was supposed to cost $350. Stopped that payment, windows went back to vendor and now are snaking their way to us on some truck, tentatively to arrive on the 20th. Which means, just in time for everyone to put down the tools and disappear for the holidays....  ::)

If this plane test flies before the new year, it will be a miracle.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 29, 2017, 11:37:37 pm
Adam--  Hoping to see some posts from you in the Commander Travels section in the New Year!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 30, 2017, 08:22:08 pm
Nothing would make me happier, Don.

Windows have arrived and are getting installed now.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 19, 2018, 11:57:16 pm
Windows installed. But of course when it came to testing it all, an old problem I'd flagged earlier reared it's ugly head: right fuel valve is intermittent. Doesn't activate boost pump or anything most of the time, just dead. It had happened twice before, but Morris couldn't replicate when I'd mentioned it, so we thought (in the age old aviation tradition), that it had fixed itself. Now, he's checked relays and actual valve switch and they're good. It's something with the power coming up to the switch from the breaker panel. Tracing that now.

On top of this, the avionics guys had hooked up the gyro pressure to the alternate air or something incomprehensible - which is why the autopilot doesn't work. Now Morris will have to untangle all that air mess and sort it out...

Never ends. But close... ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on January 20, 2018, 07:59:23 am
KEEP THE FAITH  8)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on January 20, 2018, 10:55:24 am
This will all be a distant memory.

In a few years you will read this thread just so you can remember.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on January 20, 2018, 11:47:24 am
Those are small things which will be quickly sorted out. Looking forward to some pictures, and a video!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: drwho67 on January 20, 2018, 01:27:29 pm
Those are small things which will be quickly sorted out. Looking forward to some pictures, and a video!

I second that!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 02, 2018, 02:17:13 am
Latest news?

Well, Morris almost finished. He's trying to figure out the mess they did with air system. Seems like they hooked up the alt air to the vacuum somehow, it's all making very little sense. Morris is bitching about the one piece panel I put in and the tight bundles of avionics the guys did, making work on the air-lines hard. I can see that, but the reality is I needed this on piece panel to make it look like it wasn't stuck in the 60's. So, and to make a case between mechanic-friendly and bringing it into the 21st century, this was it.

Another adjustment: I remember from last flight that I was pretty much power-lever-travelled-out on the trip back from Napa. At 17500ft I was against the stops at on the left engine. She was showing 535 C degrees (limit is 545 continuous), so not entirely full power. My friend Stan Perkins with his 681 said that should never be the case. Even at high alt, you should have some more travel left so you can temp out. So told Morris about all this and he's gonna turn up the top fuel on the fuel controller for me. Only problem is - maybe the old FC is already at max value and can't turned up anymore? What do you do then?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 02, 2018, 02:23:59 am
Here's before Xmas when the windows were still out in places.



Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 02, 2018, 11:43:22 am
I've never been at max power level travel with a 331. So that's definitely wrong... hopefully they can adjust that.

While I hope it doesn't come to this, can you overhaul those fuel controllers? Are they Bendix, I'm guessing?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 02, 2018, 03:26:13 pm
Woodward on mine. I think an overhaul would be cost-prohibitive at this point. Think they start at $8K/each, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 03, 2018, 01:27:54 am
If they're Woodward, that's good, since they're still being supported. Bendix, not so much. The Jetprops all have Woodward, the 690s have a mix of Woodward and Bendix.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on February 04, 2018, 02:21:34 pm
Woodward on mine. I think an overhaul would be cost-prohibitive at this point. Think they start at $8K/each, but I could be wrong.

Swap them side to side or swap the inlet sensors?  You?ll spend $25k on FCU overhaul and then some I?d guess. Within 10 degrees on those engines?  Call it good?  Is max egt akin to running a -5 at 923 degrees?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 05, 2018, 03:47:17 am
Yeah, probably call it good!

Don't know where they sample the EGT on the early models. I know I got in trouble forsaking the MU-2's engines don't last as long as they run them at 665 degrees, but it turns out they sample at different place. Is 953 degrees in Fahrenheit?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Jeff Johnson on February 05, 2018, 01:11:51 pm
Adam,

10-2015 to 2-2018

Are you going to remember how to fly?

How?s the bird doing?

Any chance you?ll fly this month?

And by the way.  Love the 1 piece panel!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 05, 2018, 01:54:14 pm
Well I did fly it a little in between all of these various things. About 25hrs. But yeah, haven't flown since Aug in it. Day after tomorrow I go to renew my IFR currency yet again...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 05, 2018, 02:03:18 pm
What's your current thinking on when she'll be done?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 05, 2018, 09:05:25 pm
I'm at the mercy of Morris. Should have been done in Jan. Chasing some weird vacuum issue the avionics shop messed up. They've connected something wrong somewhere. Yes, the avionics shop should fix it, but they're a bit clueless about stuff that isn't avionics related, so it's better he does it. Without that fixed I can't pressure test and A/P won't work (it's air driven).
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 27, 2018, 08:22:48 pm
We were looking so good, I was going to come up test fly her this week and if all was good, then she'd finally be out of there.

But then three new things popped up after test runs - voltage regulator on one side erratic, squat switch glitching which actuates the safety valve (making her dump pressure) and a vacuum leak that can not be pinned down.

I'm really sick of all this.

 >:(
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on February 27, 2018, 08:34:01 pm
First two are most likely pretty quick fixes... the vacuum leak however... could be a real challenge

But Morris will get it worked out I am sure. Project aircraft are almost never what they seem at the outset, as you are so well aware of by now. 

I have to admit that I have done only one and it was 5 years in the making.  NEVER EVER will I do a "project" bird again.

The "value" of flying is worth so much more than the perceived savings going in.

Keep the faith as this is just my one and a half cents worth 8)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 27, 2018, 08:53:05 pm
Skyflyer - yes, you're probably right, it's just been endless of these 'easy' fixes now. I am losing the faith.

You're too right in regards to project planes - no more! This one better be good once she's all done, because I intend to get my money's worth!  ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 28, 2018, 01:00:37 pm
Looking forward to seeing a video in the near future!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on February 28, 2018, 02:36:26 pm
Oh, you'll get your money's worth. I'll pay top dollar for your 680V when you find that Lear 23 project you can't resist.  ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JMA on March 02, 2018, 10:47:19 am
Funny next to the Commander, love the early lears, 23/24 (big circular windows, bullet tail!)
Gotta be only a few left flying.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 02, 2018, 12:37:24 pm
I think there are a few early 23/24s still flying. Someone was restoring Frank Sinatra's 23 (which also appeared in the pilot episode of Mission: Impossible).

My problem with the early 23/24s is that I simply can't fit! I'm 6'4" and I don't have enough room to have decent control clearance. I can fit in a 24D or E, or a 25, no problem, but the early ones just don't work.

They really are a lot of fun, though. Nothing like zooming up to FL430 and pulling the power way back to stay under red line! I've actually considered getting a 24D or 25D, but every time I look at the potential fuel bill, I can't convince myself to do it.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 02, 2018, 01:26:46 pm
Bill Lear -  what a true go-getter and inventor he was, never afraid to roll up his sleeves and get the job done, or put his own money down when no one else did. What an inspiration! I feel that this type of person doesn't exist much today - the tinkerer with a vision. It was a different time. It was no easy ride for him, however, which even more attests to his great character and dogged perseverance. For instance here are some of the highlights from the book Bill Lear - They Say It Couldn't Be Done:

1. His fights with Vincent Bendix and Westinghouse who had the ear of the Air Signal Corps, despite having a terrible product. Shows us bureaucracy and favorism is nothing new in the military aviation world.

2. How the chief of the Signal Corps completely scr*wed Bill over, lied right to his face. And how Vincent Bendix tried to steal his company away from him with a shady merger and stock issuance.

3. How he managed to invent radios, car radios and autopilots. Which was much of the source of his early wealth that he subsequently almost squandered on Learjet.

4. His ongoing battles with Olive Ann Beech. Perhaps most interestingly, he accused Beech and all the Wichita manufacturers of not being at all innovative (ring a bell?), just selling the same old prop stuff over again with a different paint or interior. He gave them 18 months to try to build a personal jet or come up with something new, and when they didn't, he did it himself.

5. How he managed to certify the Learjet 23 in less than a year, despite their main prototype crashing (due to FAA test pilot fault). Try that today, haha!

6. How nobody had ever done a pressurized door that opened outward before and thought he was mad for even attempting it. Btw, the same Lear door is also on the P180 Avanti.

7. How he almost brought back steam. In his case, even more forward thinking than most: the steam turbine ran a generator and the bus had an electric motor on each wheel. Something you'd expect to hear about now perhaps, but not in the 60's.


On a pure design level I find Bill Lear even more impressive - not only has the design lived on for 50 years looking as modern as it did when it came out, it set the biz jet standard that everyone still design to this day! Look at this pic of the Learjet 60XR (the prettiest one they ever made, if you ask me) and tell me that looks like a 50 year old design!


Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 02, 2018, 03:19:08 pm
Bill Lear was an amazing guy, for sure!

I might have mentioned having dinner with Bob Mays back when I picked up my 980. He was Bill's pilot in a Twin Beech and then a Commander, before Bill started Learjet. Bob didn't go with him when he moved to Switzerland, which is why Bob took the job selling Commanders, and the rest, as they say, is history!

If you run into Bob, which seems not unlikely, ask him about his early career. It's well worth the time.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JMA on March 09, 2018, 12:00:34 pm
They've been trying to piece this thing together for years... Still haven't seen it presented anywhere.
N175FS!


http://www.sunlakesaeroclub.org/updates_web_data/081231/sinatra.htm
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 10, 2018, 12:48:48 am
I bet someone gets the Sinatra Lear put together, at some point. The fact that it's identified and reasonably preserved is the key.

These old airplanes are becoming more and more artifacts as opposed to tools... like I said in the thread about the 685 for sale, it's like a '73 Cadillac-- sure, you can drive it daily if you really want, but no one can argue that it's a practical choice these days.

Adam is going to have the best 680V on the planet, so that's something...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 10, 2018, 12:49:33 am
Or maybe second best after N4622E...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 18, 2018, 01:06:01 pm
Tentatively picking her up on Wed. Wish me luck.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 18, 2018, 01:07:55 pm
Good luck! I don't need to tell you this, but plan on staying for a few days!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Jeff Johnson on March 18, 2018, 02:17:09 pm
Adam,

This is a very exciting moment!

I hope it all goes smoothly.

Jeff
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on March 18, 2018, 02:51:19 pm
YEAHHHHHHHHH
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 19, 2018, 06:24:17 pm
Good luck! I don't need to tell you this, but plan on staying for a few days!

That's my worry, I have to either get her back that day, or leave her there again. I have work the day after. We all know how the old trick pick-your-plane-up-and-expect-it-to-be-squaw-free-and-ready goes in real life.... ::)

But hey, maybe I'll get lucky.  ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 20, 2018, 12:09:39 am
There is a first time for everything!

Good luck! I don't need to tell you this, but plan on staying for a few days!

That's my worry, I have to either get her back that day, or leave her there again. I have work the day after. We all know how the old trick pick-your-plane-up-and-expect-it-to-be-squaw-free-and-ready goes in real life.... ::)

But hey, maybe I'll get lucky.  ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Jeff Johnson on March 22, 2018, 11:47:06 am
Anxiously Awaiting a flight photo and great adventures!

Hopefully all is going well Adam

Let us know
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 24, 2018, 01:11:38 pm
Well, you can guess what happened.

Now they've found that the boots don't inflate anywhere... And I wasn't about to launch into heavy IMC (weather was terrible last week) first thing out of the gate. Especially not without de-icing. So went up and spent a whole day looking at two mechanics troubleshooting shit and left, $800 later in air travel, rental cars, hotels etc... Vacuum still not gaging. Pressurization leaks on emergency door and main door still. They say they'll fix that..

God I'm sick of it all. Just need her out of there.

Hope to be able to get her out of there next week.



Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on March 24, 2018, 05:02:57 pm
Well I gotta say looking at the middle photo enlarged... that your windshields look amazing.  Much better than I imagined having never tried to resurface one.

As for a "service center"...  sometimes they are not much better at reserecting the old and infirmed airframes.

So keep the faith... work a few more pictures and all good things will come to pass as they say 8)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 24, 2018, 09:44:04 pm
Thanks - yes they do! That's one of the things that came out really well.

I did go through all the electrical stuff after the winglet installation and that seems to work really well, too. So not all bad news. Speaking of electrical stuff, you might recall that for some reason all the Commanders I've owned have had the strobes wired to the nav light. Meaning, you either had to have both on or none, which was a huge pain at night when you wanted to turn off the strobes as a courtesy to others, but leave the nav lights on. Couldn't do that - had to taxi with strobes on and get hated on by everyone. In any case, Morris wired the strobes to the ice lights in a real nice way, so that was a good solution.

And the ice light leads me to...

I have an idea for a pretty easy STC mod. Probably never get around to it doing it, but here's the idea: Remove the ice light, and replace it with a split, two lens LED light. One lights up the leading edge just like the old ice light did, but the other source (below it in the same lamp), lights up the ground around the wingtip. That would be really useful when you land at unknown airfields at night. It was always really hard to see at the smaller airports with unlit taxiways - this would improve your situational awareness a lot. It would not require any modification to the actual opening on the cowl, just a new light.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on March 25, 2018, 08:14:22 am
Good idea on the ice light...  not sure if it would even require an STC... but I prefer my old highway patrol light for dark unknown landing sites 8)

I actually have thought about seeing if it could be done but with HID of course 8)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 25, 2018, 08:43:10 am
That's the thing, the service centers prob don't have the knowledge either on these older birds. Not like they get a chance to work on them that much. I don't know where to take her.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 25, 2018, 11:36:58 am
I like the ice light idea.

Aero Air works on a 680V regularly... I'm not saying they're the best, or even that they would be better than Morris. They do have more people (I'm guessing?) and an incentive to keep airplanes moving out of their shop so the next batch can move in. That could lead to it's own issues, but at least they are motivated to get airplanes out the door.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 25, 2018, 04:28:44 pm
Don - most likely will go to AeroAir myself. It's a little bit of a trek from SoCal, but prob best option. Bruce gave me a connection for a guy in Arizona that's ex-EAM, so that's also a good lead. Will see where it ends up to get the last bits fixed.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 25, 2018, 05:21:17 pm
I deal with this stuff with old cars... I'm supposed to pick up my 1971 Mercedes this week, after it's been in the shop since October. Similar deal-- small shop, long wait times for parts, long wait time part came in... oops, it's broken. Etc. The good news is that, given how susceptible to rust it is, I wouldn't have driven in much at all during the winter, and functionally it will be much better than it was (I hope!), but it's still a long time.

I haven't had any such issues with Aero Air-- they've generally been pretty good about getting work done promptly. I think even my avionics upgrade was only a few weeks late, and you have to expect that.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 27, 2018, 10:31:21 pm
So did you fly her?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 27, 2018, 11:10:04 pm
So did you fly her?

Nope!

Now I go up on Thursday. They swear she's ready... ::)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on March 28, 2018, 07:01:01 am
Would that be "swear" (ing) for or at 8)

Hope it's for
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 28, 2018, 11:59:14 am
Good luck! My Mercedes was supposed to be ready Thursday as well, but now looks like next week. Hopefully your luck will be better.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 30, 2018, 07:19:20 pm
Anyway, she's finally back!

Long day yesterday with a lot of last minute BS. I was rushing to get out of there end of the day, left engine didn't start because I'd bumped the igniter switch with my head in the overhead panel. Duh. Then someone thought they might have hooked up the pressurization controller wrong...

One of M's mechanics came out with a little thimble of whiskey and said: "Drink this. Everyone's rushing now and that's when mistakes happen. It's gonna be dark soon, why not just stay in my guest room and fly her out tomorrow when everyone's well rested and everything has been double checked properly?". He was of course right. I took him up on his kind offer and went to bed early. Next morning the pressurization controllers were hooked up right and I could finally fire her up and leave.

Flew back to LA in 1hr 20min with a good GS of 260kts at 15000ft. Everything worked fine except for the:

1. Known problems of pressurization. Still only doing 2.5psi, but I now have a pretty good idea where those leaks are.

2. A/P does uncommanded climb no matter where the command bars are. No idea why. Something for avionics shop to deal with.

3. Can't get the HSI to work, no matter what I do. Had to fly on backup.

4. IFD540 cut out on transmission immediately again, so the previous idea that the generator that went offline and the low voltage did it, wasn't actually the problem. It's something with the unit. I take her to avionics shop on Mon.

After landing had opportunity to test my AC Air T1.5 tug for the first time to get her back in the hangar. Love this little thing - very powerful. So glad I got the Lazy Susan model, or otherwise it wouldn't have worked. Did fine over the hangar door tracks, too. But holy moly is it a tight fit... I'd measured it many times, but today I didn't think she'd fit. Got about 3" of space! It's a hangar rash waiting to happen, though.

Despite all the stuff still needed to get done and weighing on my mind and wallet, it felt great to be flying her again. She really flies nice. Beautiful smooth day, too. Even the landings were OK.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on March 30, 2018, 07:31:26 pm
HOME IS WHERE THE HEART IS... or the Commander in the hangar as it were.  Happy to see it still fits.

Everything will soon come together and smooth flights are on the horizon. Yeah 8)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 30, 2018, 08:15:46 pm
Congratulations! That is awesome news!

I didn't realize you were getting a hangar-- where did you end up?

I think a hangar is a really, really good choice. So much better for the airplane.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 30, 2018, 09:06:52 pm
Paid rent on the hangar for almost a year sitting empty!.. :o

It's at EMT. Unfortunately it's the biggest size they have at the moment.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 30, 2018, 11:56:35 pm
I had a hangar at EMT over 30 years ago. I'm surprised they have one that big! Can you close the door?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Jeff Johnson on March 31, 2018, 02:47:53 am
Adam,

Great news!  I’m very happy for you.  Get the minor things fixed and go fly. 

You deserve years of enjoyment out of her.  I hope she delivers.

See you in the sky sometime!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 31, 2018, 07:27:24 am
Thanks Jeff!

Don - yes, can close the door with 2" to spare!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 01, 2018, 02:23:58 pm
Did my night currency yesterday, engines run great. Was so much fun I did 5 landings - one short approach, too.

Panel looks good and UMA-lights around the analog stuff makes it look kinda modern. Getting more familiar with the IFD540.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 01, 2018, 02:41:17 pm
That's great! Night landings at EMT?

I always remember EMT as being a little bit challenging to find, at least in the daytime-- it always seemed like it was just another piece of concrete, only with a runway painted on it, in a sea of other concrete!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Roy on April 01, 2018, 02:43:26 pm
Great to see you're back in the air and it is in its home Adam.

Looks like it might not fit if the flaps were up. Also looks like someone before you has bashed the hangar a few times too...

Cool looking tug!

Roy
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: kent4142 on April 01, 2018, 09:04:02 pm
Wowzers!!!! Congratulations!!!!

I have put 73 hours on N97WT.  I am more in love now, than I was 6 months ago.  You are going to have so much fun!!

Great News!

Kent
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on April 04, 2018, 07:45:03 am
Adam,

I have similar clearances as you in my hangar, and I also started with a ACAir tug (I switched to a PowerTow, but that's another story.) My door clears by 3" and my wingtips clear by about the same.

I came up with a system of pipes bolted into the floor that physically stop the wheels before I hit a tip but also let me go right back to the same point, every time. I've been going in and out for 4 years now and I'm still at zero dings. Let me know if you want more info.

Welcome back to the sky!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 04, 2018, 03:53:45 pm
JimC

That's what I think i'll be laying down myself. Someone recommended the parking barriers Line sell, just bolting those down to the floor.

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-4608B~Y/Parking-Lot-Safety/Parking-Stops-6-Rubber-Black-Yellow?pricode=WA9372&gadtype=pla&id=H-4608B%2FY&gclid=CjwKCAjw75HWBRAwEiwAdzefxNM8yCb8NTYxFUn6ODjdPYigJiuDGG9YPVF0DX3QvYG-L0hrUcGYShoCuMkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-4608B~Y/Parking-Lot-Safety/Parking-Stops-6-Rubber-Black-Yellow?pricode=WA9372&gadtype=pla&id=H-4608B%2FY&gclid=CjwKCAjw75HWBRAwEiwAdzefxNM8yCb8NTYxFUn6ODjdPYigJiuDGG9YPVF0DX3QvYG-L0hrUcGYShoCuMkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on April 04, 2018, 06:06:07 pm
I think you can still bump over those. The tops of my pipes are about 6" off the floor, so they catch much more of the tire and really stop the plane. They're in an "L" shape (one for each MLG wheel) so that the plane is protected not just as it nears the spot but on the way in. I'll try and get some pics up. It's very effective.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on April 04, 2018, 06:16:14 pm
OK, not the best pic...but here it is. Zoom in and you'll see the pipes on the floor. They are on the inside of each MLG wheel because the brake discs are on the outside. If a tire touches the pipes, the plane won't slide by - it stops. I built it to have 1 1/2" of tolerance in the final spot. 19 times out of 20 I don't hit the pipes, but sometimes I do - and that would have been a ding. Also, I'm not constantly looking at each wing, the tail, the lines on the floor, etc - just the pipes.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on April 04, 2018, 06:17:41 pm
Arrgg..picked the wrong resolution.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on April 04, 2018, 08:00:26 pm
The idea has probably been posted already but I’ve seen some iron C channel used to carefully guide a 441 into a hangar big enough for a Citation.  Seemed to work well and low enough profile as I recall.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 05, 2018, 04:56:30 pm
Thanks JimC - I see what you've done there. Yeah, might do something similar. Might just bolt down some big wooden sleepers on the inside, like in the same shape you have it. Paint it yellow.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on April 05, 2018, 05:43:06 pm
I used pipes because my original idea was that it could slide into place along the low-friction pipes - that was foolish. A rubber tire with 4000lbs on it isn't moving laterally - at all.

But what I found that *does* work, and *is* important, is that leading line of pipe. Lots of people have made backstops, but if you only have a backstop you can still hit a tip if you're twisted. The clearance is so tight on my lead-in pipes that I touch those (and stop) if I'm headed to the backstops twisted even a little.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 09, 2018, 10:05:11 am
Word from avionics shop is that the reason the IFD540 cut out and showed yellow warning immediately on transmission is I had bad com antenna! Funny how a $300 item can render a $80K installation useless... ;)

Go up and test approaches on her today. They say everything works, except they had to disconnect A/P computer as it was somehow interfering with HSI. I'll have to deal with that later, so for now no A/P.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 09, 2018, 01:25:16 pm
Good luck! I would make them get the autopilot working, though... you really don't want to do any reasonably long trips without it (speaking from experience).
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on April 09, 2018, 04:09:47 pm
A working autopilot is necessary for safety of flight in planes of this complexity.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on April 09, 2018, 06:15:37 pm
I agree with Don and Jim.. The a/p is a safety item for any flight of reasonable duration (greater than 2 hours). I do 3 hour trips each way (6 hour r/t) almost weekly. Tried it once in good wx without the a/p and was very surprised at how tired I was on arrival not to mention how easy it would have been to get BEHIND the airplane.

Try to get the a/p working if at all possible. But I am very happy for you that the Commander is once again flying. 8)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on April 09, 2018, 10:50:50 pm
Word from avionics shop is that the reason the IFD540 cut out and showed yellow warning immediately on transmission is I had bad com antenna! Funny how a $300 item can render a $80K installation useless... ;)

Go up and test approaches on her today. They say everything works, except they had to disconnect A/P computer as it was somehow interfering with HSI. I'll have to deal with that later, so for now no A/P.

Ouch, no flight director? That’s a double whammy. 
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 10, 2018, 12:02:47 am
It will have to wait a bit. I'll have to take A/P to an expert - these guys don't have the expertise. And I don't have any options when it comes to A/P's - it's either a S-Tec 65 system and kiss $70K goodbye for an old analog rate based one, or get this one going. There are a few shops who can still deal with H-14's. Plus, it worked before, so can't be a huge thing.

Anyway, did approaches today and everything worked fine on the HSI. And comm was loud and clear.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on April 15, 2018, 07:14:51 pm
Adam,

Great news but there seems to be something missing from your posts.  Well, yes, from mine too but that is beside the point.

WHERE'S The VIDEO? :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 16, 2018, 02:32:57 am
Glenn, I was so preoccupied with all the stuff on my flights I didn't take any video. Also, I've become a bit worried about posting that stuff to YouTube as I heard the feds gave one of the most prolific posters a 709 ride for something they didn't like. So, they're watching. But I will post something down the line.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on April 16, 2018, 08:30:30 am
Wow! Who got the 709 for YouTube videos?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 16, 2018, 10:46:10 am
Wow! Who got the 709 for YouTube videos?

Steve1Kinevo, the TBM pilot. It was in regards to a part 135 flight he did in the Caravan and posten on YouTube, but still. Don't think a sloppy part 91 pilot would slide just because it's part 91.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 16, 2018, 02:50:08 pm
Wow! Who got the 709 for YouTube videos?

Steve1Kinevo, the TBM pilot. It was in regards to a part 135 flight he did in the Caravan and posten on YouTube, but still. Don't think a sloppy part 91 pilot would slide just because it's part 91.

You're probably right about that, but I think he was sort of asking for it with his videos. And the FAA is far more motivated when it comes to 135, because they have an inspector (or inspectors) focused just on that specific operator.

I'd just be careful about posting the exact location and letting them see the panel close up. With some careful (even slightly careful) editing, you should be fine.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on April 16, 2018, 06:54:12 pm
Sorry, not biting... Sounds like an excuse to me.  If I’m still posting you have to as well. :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 24, 2018, 12:17:37 am
Latest from Tulsa is they're making some progress on the autopilot. Apparently the avionics guys didn't install an isolator (or something like that), which interfered with the a/p. Feels good to be in the hands of experts who know what they're talking about. Hopefully won't be too expensive and should be ready in a  week or two for pickup.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on June 29, 2018, 03:21:32 am
Sure know how to pick 'em. Now it's been another two months at the A/P shop and not much progress. Am I just cursed?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Rich on June 29, 2018, 07:09:51 am
Hi Adam, sad to see this still dragging on - how did it go from a week or so to another two months?!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: ghancock on June 29, 2018, 10:21:52 am
It is sad that all of these shops are taking such advantage of us.  I know they have to make money but 2 months for an auto pilot and you haven't touched it yet is absolutely ridiculous.  This is one of the reasons I feel like I need a plane I can work on myself and not have to dump on a shop every year.  The sad state of affairs is that most of the old guys that used to know what they are doing have been replaced with younger lazier versions that only want a paycheck and could care less if you're happy with their work or not.

Ok, going to stop here before I pull soap box out any farther. :-)

Glenn
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on July 01, 2018, 04:06:55 pm
It is sad that all of these shops are taking such advantage of us.  I know they have to make money but 2 months for an auto pilot and you haven't touched it yet is absolutely ridiculous.  This is one of the reasons I feel like I need a plane I can work on myself and not have to dump on a shop every year.  The sad state of affairs is that most of the old guys that used to know what they are doing have been replaced with younger lazier versions that only want a paycheck and could care less if you're happy with their work or not.

Ok, going to stop here before I pull soap box out any farther. :-)

Glenn

I think there’s truth in that the old expert guys going away.  But I also observe guys here going to the wrong people.  And then going so far as to RECOMMEND the wrong people to others even though they have been screwed. I have heard the horror stories offline again and again.

Anyway, I suspect Adam would admit that, if he had the right avionics shop who knew the plane, he wouldn’t be spending another 6 months and god only knows how much money chasing the missing diode. Hindsight is 20/20, and I’m not being critical, just observing the hard lessons learned over and over again. It’s best to engage someone who knows the plane. And, sadly, those guys are fewer and farther between.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on July 01, 2018, 04:23:39 pm
My attitude is that getting the work done right, and on time, is more important than getting it done as cheaply as possible. Life's too short to be constantly waiting around.

Aero Air did my gear overhaul on time (early, in fact!) and on budget. And didn't cut any corners while they were at it. I'm sure I could have had someone do it for less, but why?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on July 02, 2018, 10:50:25 am
No, I've certainly learned the hard way that lesson.

But this shop has great reputation and are experts on these older A/P's.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on July 02, 2018, 03:19:09 pm
And we should probably qualify the difference between a 680 and the later model planes.  It’s relativey easy to service a turbine, especially 690 and later.  Different markets.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on July 13, 2018, 12:11:56 am
It will have to wait a bit. I'll have to take A/P to an expert - these guys don't have the expertise. And I don't have any options when it comes to A/P's - it's either a S-Tec 65 system and kiss $70K goodbye for an old analog rate based one, or get this one going. There are a few shops who can still deal with H-14's. Plus, it worked before, so can't be a huge thing.

Anyway, did approaches today and everything worked fine on the HSI. And comm was loud and clear.

Just got her back from Autopilot Central  - A/P works! And to be honest, not that bad to have it fixed. So very happy about that. It prob doesn't ILS couple, but I don't need that anyway. As long as she can track a heading, stay at an altitude or track a NAV, I'm good.  ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on July 13, 2018, 12:27:05 am
Congratulations on getting it working!

Does it couple to the GPS?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on July 13, 2018, 05:59:12 am
Only flown it in HDG mode yesterday, as I was dodging so many thunderstorms, but it should all work. I'll fly in GPS NAV mode today and test it out.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on July 13, 2018, 07:18:03 am
GREAT NEWS!!   Good it works... Hopefully it will do all the functions that it was designed to do for you and help make your flying safer and easier.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on July 13, 2018, 06:16:38 pm
Yep, does work. Did an LPV into Lake Havasu on the way back. Only thing it didn't do was fly the course reversal hold, so had to switch over to HDG mode for that. But after that was done, it tracked the inbound fine.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on July 13, 2018, 06:34:46 pm
Do you fly it in NAV mode, or do you have roll steering (autopilot stays in heading mode, and the GPS sends it commands)?

If it's roll steering, it should be able to do whatever the GPS is capable of.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on July 14, 2018, 10:58:22 am
NAV mode, I think. A/P says ILS/VOR, so the GPS sends it Nav info, so it's basically thinking it's tracking a radial or a LOC. I'm really bad technically with what all these things are called, btw.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on July 14, 2018, 09:18:39 pm
Do you have a switch or button which toggles between "HDG" and "GPSS"? That's how you enable roll steering.

If you don't have it, and the avionics shop never mentioned it, shame on them. It's really how these GPS systems are intended to work.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Jeff Johnson on August 02, 2018, 04:34:24 pm
Don,

Funny you should mention this. 
But with my avionics upgrade I did not know or think about gpss.  And at first I was hot to get it, either with an Aspen or a similar roll steering device.  But alas I’m over it and love still having to input something when flying.  Because honestly after takeoff AP on and just start pushing the buttons. 

And with ADS-b and able to get into the flight levels.  I’m just getting direct from bend to socal.  It’s awesome!

Then vectors to final, push the approach button and I’m locked into the glideslope. 
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on August 07, 2018, 04:35:53 pm
Committed to floor replacement now.

Floor was terrible and a source of a lot of leaks. I had planned to clean it up as best I could and just re-seal and patch as much as possible, but after having the shop look under the floor and finding a lot of dirt, old caked oil and stuck pulleys, it's best to just rip the whole thing out, redo it and clean everything up. They're saying 40hrs to do the work, but I think it will be more than that.

It's a good thing. Just bad timing and annoying financially.  :(



Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on August 07, 2018, 05:48:46 pm
I think you are definitely going to have one of the best 680s in existence when you are done!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on August 07, 2018, 06:01:30 pm
I think you are definitely going to have one of the best 680s in existence when you are done!

Yeah - the only one left in the world at this pace!  ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on August 23, 2018, 01:18:29 am
I'm hoping to see it show up at HIO one of these days!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 13, 2018, 08:24:17 pm
No updates, really. Shop's been backed up with annuals that were there before me, so mine is last in line. I've asked for it to be ready end of Oct, but let's be honest, this is aviation...  ::)

Did do my currency in the sim, and as usual, it's pretty scary to see how skills atrophy when you haven't flown for awhile...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on October 13, 2018, 11:03:14 pm
Wait, there are people who have been waiting longer than you have? When did they bring their airplanes in, years ago?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 14, 2018, 09:12:41 am
No, I decided halfway down the line to also do the annual. Initially it was just to fix the floor and a hydraulic leak. So by then there were like 5 annuals ahead of me...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 10, 2018, 06:53:06 pm
Back in hangar after about another 4 months.... :-X 

Turns out whilst I thought we were almost done with the phase inspection after all this time, we were in fact none of that. Not even started. Couldn't get to it until Jan 2019, they now said....  ::) So, yanked her out of there and taking her to a service center. I've had enough of waiting around. It's been 4 years since I bought this plane and she's flown very little due to all these time wasters.

Think I'm going to have to become an A&P myself.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on November 10, 2018, 07:11:02 pm
You have got to be kidding me! That is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on November 10, 2018, 07:17:34 pm
Wow Adam a total bummer... Having been pretty much where you are right now with the one and only "restoration" project I did some years back, I feel for ya.  And exactly why I will never do another one.
Which service center are you thinking of going to?  I sort of doubt with the holidays rolling in that any of them will be very swift getting your bird done...  But I hope that you finally get lucky.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 11, 2018, 12:33:55 pm
AeroAir say the have time to do it in December before xmas. I also need some of the outer fuel bladders repaired or replaced, so it's probably going to take a bit longer. But it's encouraging.  :D Forum member Don services his there and I known they have experience with Dept. of Montana Highways 680V, so that's why I'm thinking they're a good fit.

As a general observation from speaking to a few smaller maintenance facilities, it seems that there isn't just a pilot shortage, but also a pretty severe A/P shortage. Many are struggling to find people and those who do graduate as mechanics can pick and choose amongst high paid and cushier jet jobs with good benefits, creating a deficiency at the smaller shops. Maybe interests have changed as well - less kids grow up wrenching on old cars in their fathers garage, I suppose.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 12, 2018, 11:10:32 pm
I saw your airplane this afternoon! I think Dan and Richard will take good care of you.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 13, 2018, 12:49:58 am
Yeah! If I'd had more time, I'd loved to come say hi and look at your bird, but had to jump on a plane and get back down here.

They seemed really nice and Richard gave me a beautiful tour of the facilities. Cool. Even got to poke around a beautiful P180 Avanti they had in one of the hangars and also look up close on the G650 they have in the other. Told them it was no hurry to get her done - I've only waited 4 years already, what's a few more months?

On the way up I'd planned on going on 16000ft, but now all of a sudden the cabin barely made 1psi diff, so had to amend cruise to 12000ft. Didn't do my fuel burns any good, but we got there. Did the ILS into Hillsboro and the ceilings were pretty low and broken.

I'm ready for this bird to be done now.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 13, 2018, 12:58:58 am
I was on my way home from Dallas today, so not there, unfortunately. I had a minor issue of my own, so I dropped my airplane off at Aero Air when I got back, and that's when I saw yours. I think Aero Air will be much more timely than the other shops you've dealt with!

Although, to be fair, some of that time is just the nature of dealing with old airplanes (cars, boats, etc)!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 13, 2018, 01:06:24 am
Ah, OK.

Yeah, old stuff. Noticed on this flight that when I'm transmitting on the radio, the EGT temp on the R engine drops about 100 degrees and then jumps right back up again the second I stop transmitting! I mean, how random is that? And impossible to trouble-shoot, probably. Old planes with gremlins in their systems....
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on January 17, 2019, 12:19:56 pm
How are things going?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 18, 2019, 02:56:47 pm
I think it's progressing. They sent me an estimates list that was pretty eye watering, but we've now whittled it down somewhat.

Like the props went from $17K for the "mandatory Hartzell overhaul" to a simple inspection and reseal for $7K. Why on earth grind down perfectly new blades when it's not needed? But that's the Hartzell MO and less knowing owners probably think that's their only option. You just have to know the regulations a bit and stand your ground part 91.

The engine will need the 3rd turbine stage replaced. I'd really hoped to not have to do this, but the cycles are up no matter how you count. Sticking a used stage in and it shouldn't be the end of the world financially. They've sourced one but I also have options from another vendor on turbine stages.

But all in all it's gonna be more than I anticipated. Just have to keep my head down, earn and work as much as I can and get it done. Gonna take a few months to get her out of there, I'm thinking. No hurry, better it gets done correct one last time than having to send her back. Plus I need the time to make some money... ;)

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on January 18, 2019, 03:02:10 pm
I hope they're taking good care of you. They have certainly done a good job for me over the years!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 19, 2019, 03:31:15 pm
I hope they're taking good care of you. They have certainly done a good job for me over the years!

So far they've been great. Communicative and clear.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 16, 2019, 01:40:52 am
Any updates?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 17, 2019, 01:11:17 am
Not really. They're eager to start the work, but it means I need to wire them $30K for parts up front. And right now that's more than I got in the bank, to be honest. It would be nice to book few more jobs, so I know I can cover it comfortably. But it's a quiet time of the year for me normally, so until I know I have work coming in, we'll have to wait. Shouldn't be too long.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on February 17, 2019, 08:48:01 am
Yep... money is the root of all good things..  Umm did I remember that correctly... 8)

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 17, 2019, 10:48:51 am
Yep... money is the root of all good things..  Umm did I remember that correctly... 8)

Certainly true in the case of airplanes!

Aero Air's old, now-retired, director of maintenance used to always say "Airplanes don't run on fuel, they run on money!" and he was right.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 17, 2019, 12:56:39 pm
Very true.

Yeah, it was more than I expected. Adding that we couldn't reconcile the cycle times with the books, having to send the engine off is adding to it. I've also started new business last year that needs a lot of my investment, plus trying to rebuild my house, it's really been a tough year. This year looks lie it won't be any easier.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 17, 2019, 01:01:41 pm
Aero Air's inspection department is pretty strict-- and I think that's a good thing.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on February 17, 2019, 02:56:13 pm
Time to get the "set" lighting fired up and the cameras rolling on the next blockbuster Oscar nod.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 17, 2019, 11:14:47 pm
Time to get the "set" lighting fired up and the cameras rolling on the next blockbuster Oscar nod.

There's no money in that. The money is in selling your soul to corporate America and doing their fast food and car ads!  ;)
I wish one day I could get an Oscar, but I'm far away from that.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on June 06, 2019, 03:05:50 pm
Update.

The buyer-to-be had instructed AeroAir to do some work on her and make her ferryable to Miami. After we ended escrow, naturally I inherited that bill. They'd actually done quite a bit to her during the escrow period, which is good. I'm pleased to say that the leaking tanks etc were done as repairs etc. I've now decided to just keep her there and have them finish it all, but at a pace I can afford. They've been very accommodating in this regard. This was accomplished:

1.5    Fuel bladder leaks  $1676.95  Work completed.

1.6    Door unlock switch (could be an egress issue). $290.66  Work completed.

1.11  Leaking right brake.  $237.02  Work completed.

1.21, 1.22, 1.23- Portable fire extinguisher  $356.55.  Work completed.

1.31  Rudder cables/pulleys routing. $312.00  Work complete.

1.33   Nose wheel bearing severely corroded  $38.00  Work complete.

1.36, 1.37, 1.43 Oxygen- for lack of an operational oxygen system there will be an altitude restriction on the ferry permit  $208.00.  Work completed on 1.43 only.  No further leaks.  If you elect to not correct 1.36 and 1.37, ferry permit would restrict to 10,000 feet.

1.41   Rudder trim indication only shows full left or full right, nothing in between.  $624.00.  Work completed.

1.42   Elevator trim indication only shows full up or full down, nothing in between.  $312.00.  Work completed.

1.51    Fuel bladder access panel 3” crack   $629.51  Work completed.

1.53, 1.54 Amend weight/balance to reflect these modifications (winglets installation, clamshell doors removal)  $208.00  Work completed.

1.58  Flap/gear valve leak.   $104.00  Work completed.

1.61 Loose wires- secure   $104.00  Work completed.

1.70   Landing gear warning horn inoperative. $356.98  Work completed.

1.71  Landing gear red “unsafe” light is intermittent.  $104.00  Work completed.

1.72   Nose landing gear does not retract all the way. $416.00  Work completed.

1.73   Nose landing gear green “down” light doesn’t illuminate during emergency gear down check.  $31.20  Work completed.

2.4   AD2017-04-06 “United Instruments Altimeters”.  $55.00  Work is completed.

Now, moving on to the next big steps on an item-by-item basis. The major one is fixing the cabin leaks, the main wing boots and getting a used 3rd stage turbine wheel into the left engine. I will leave the prop SB "overhaul" for last. I can legally defer it as it's an SB, so we'll see how much is left after all the other items have been addressed.

 ::)

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on June 06, 2019, 03:14:48 pm
I don't know if you know this, but the main runway at HIO is closed for the summer-- not reopening until September 30. That means the longest runway is 4,000 feet-- and it's not generally aligned with the prevailing wind.

What that means is that many of their jet customers can't (or won't) get in this summer... so they are probably happy to have your work. And mine-- my airplane is getting it's annual right now.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on June 06, 2019, 03:20:48 pm
I did not know this! That's good for me and perhaps bad for their bottom line ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Sergio Vega on June 06, 2019, 03:29:12 pm
Adam, does Aero Air work on piston Commanders?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on June 06, 2019, 04:48:17 pm
Sergio, I'm not Adam, but yes, they do.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on June 06, 2019, 09:04:50 pm
Adam, I would say  you got away cheap.  I know you have some potential big tickets items but that list for those items is reasonable.

For what it’s worth I have been chasing a door lock light for a while.  It was fixed at the last 150hr and still works.

It is a simple system, so simple in fact I wonder about its value.  I like everything working but if that light goes on I don’t fret.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Sergio Vega on June 07, 2019, 12:06:17 am
Sergio, I'm not Adam, but yes, they do.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Roy on June 11, 2019, 09:33:33 am
Yeah, that runway maintenance at HIO has moved my Company's Shuttle operations to PDX for the summer. That makes a day trip there really painful and unproductive.

I'm hoping to avoid trips there this summer, though I do have one trip in July that I can't avoid... makes it an overnighter due to the time of the meeting vs. the bus ride to PDX.

Roy
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Jeff Johnson on August 17, 2019, 11:09:34 am
Adam,

Did you happen to see the barnstormer add for a parting out of undamaged 680v?

Maybe they have somethings you might need!

Hope all is well

Jeff
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on August 17, 2019, 01:48:10 pm
I did not! Lemme have a look...

UPDATE: It's an old A&P school plane they taught on. Not much commonality.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on September 08, 2019, 10:33:12 pm
Any updates, Adam? Going to get her out of there before the runway opens?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on September 09, 2019, 06:09:36 pm
Just finished all the fuel bladders/drains/leaks, now moving on to pressurization. I doubt she'll be out of there before the end of the year with the pace I can afford. Byt slowly making progress.

Need a new medical, some currency and a BFR at this point too. I really dread climbing into an old C172 to do it, but it will have to be done.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on September 10, 2019, 12:41:45 am
If you want a BFR in the 680, let me know. I'm a CFI.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on September 11, 2019, 11:15:31 am
Thanks Don - that's great to know! Not sure of the legalities of doing a training flight when on a ferry permit (no interior), but technically I can't see why it wouldn't be allowed. But I think I'll just have to climb into that old 172 beforehand..... ::)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 07, 2019, 05:17:26 pm
Any updates?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 08, 2019, 09:25:40 pm
Very slow progress by default - I can't pay for it right now. My startup is still eating everything. But Dan Black has made some minor progress and changed all the slip contacts for the prop heating, so that's working again. Then onto cabin leaks, de-ice boots and the 3rd stage wheel replacement on one engine.

Honestly, I'm so over it, but it is what it is. Just did my IFR recurrency, but haven't flown for a year, so now need new medical and new biannual. Even if she was ready to go, gonna have to go fly with someone for a few hours to get back in the swing of things. Too rusty.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 08, 2019, 10:21:03 pm
Let me know next time you come up.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 10, 2019, 01:08:41 pm
Let me know next time you come up.

Will do. I'm hoping to get my interior out of the less than responsive upholstery guy and drive it up to Aeroair at some point for them to finish. That way everything is in one spot. Also heard from Dan they might be able to pick up the pace end of Jan, as they too have been very busy.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 18, 2020, 12:35:32 pm
Steve at AeroAir contacted me just right before all of this Covid-business started and said they wanted to proceed faster and get her out of there (don't blame them). Great timing as I'd had a very busy beginning of the year and finally my winery was starting to support its own costs, so we made up a plan to move forward and completing. Literally 2 weeks later the s*it hit the fan and all regular income was lost for any foreseeable future. So I sent email to Dan and said halt everything, just finish the commenced task and make ready for ferry.  They've now said they're looking to have her ferryable in May.

But I'm now severely out of currency, so if I do the flight myself, I'll have to take an extra day to just do some local training up in Oregon. Might be hard to find an instructor there willing to train, but even if I'm alone at least I can fly a bit locally and get back into the swing of things. Don - would you happen to know an instructor with Commander experience locally? Does AeroAir still have any Commander pilots?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 18, 2020, 12:45:11 pm
I could probably do it, or I can suggest someone. I don't know anyone who has ever been in a 680V, though (including myself).

I would suggest getting one of the guys who does 680V stuff to fly out, fly with you back to California, and do some training on the way.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 15, 2020, 03:02:30 pm
Just an update. Dan contacted me with a recap with what's been done and preparing for the ferry flight back.

Engine inlets have been pulled out, repaired and repainted.

The brushes on the prop heaters have mostly been fixed. LH outboards are not heating up and going to half voltage, despite the slip rings being good. The guy at Twin Commander LLC now think it might be a bad lead from the timer, so they're going to try to trouble shoot that. I could let it slide for now, but I think it's better to try to complete these very type specific conundrums at a place where they have expertise. So I've said go ahead to try to fix that, despite me or the world not really having great economy right now.

Cabin pressurization has been progressing. They changed some duct clamps and could get 1+ psi out of it on first try. Then with sealing the floor with tape it jumped to 3.3psi at Max Flow rate. They've found some taped and leaking inlet ducts at the back of pressure bulkhead. Unfortunately, they can't repair them and would need the replaced, but the lead time is 16 weeks for those. I've said go ahead and order them and lets do it right. I know they want her out of there and my finances are tight, but now in the summer months I don't mind if she sits on the ramp until part arrives. I think getting pressurization nailed down is important, because she would get her interior put back in after the ferry flight which would make any fixes inside cabin a pain to deal with after that happens.

So, that's where we are now. If all goes to plan, should be able to hopefully get her out of there by end of summer. Recently, I've  really been itching to go flying again. Need to get up to speed. Can you fly with instructor 6ft away from you? ;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 15, 2020, 03:41:39 pm
That is great!

So is the only thing standing between you and a fully signed off annual your turbine wheel issue?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 15, 2020, 08:49:55 pm
That is great!

So is the only thing standing between you and a fully signed off annual your turbine wheel issue?

And prop inspection and replacement of MW boots. Unfortunately all pretty big dollar items. But we'll get there.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 15, 2020, 10:12:44 pm
Have you considered just removing the boots? Or maybe that costs just as much?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 18, 2020, 08:41:32 am
Have you considered just removing the boots? Or maybe that costs just as much?

I would really like it to stay FIKI. Also, then you need to start messing with a new MMEL list and FAA approval and all that, so prob just easier to do.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on June 09, 2020, 12:56:32 am
I saw it sitting outside today!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on June 09, 2020, 12:04:33 pm
Hang in there Adam, piston twins are going away slowly but surely.  Your airplane should be tempting to someone making the choice between a 421/414/340.

It is just a matter of making people aware.  Have you posted on any websites for piston twins, like twin Cessna flyer.  They might even be interested in a write up on your plane.

Just thought.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on June 12, 2020, 04:49:53 pm
I saw it sitting outside today!

I told them they could roll it outside until the part arrives. 16 week lead time on the vent... :o

Steve, I have not made any more efforts to make it more visible. I'm hoping I can get her back here to LA and put the interior in, and then re-assess. At least with the interior in and all the pressurization stuff taken care of I should be able to sell her (if still need to then). Without an interior in place, I think I'll struggle to get much interest. If there's anything I've learned over the years with aircraft, it's that people buy with their eyes.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on June 12, 2020, 07:49:25 pm
I think that's exactly the right thing to do. Is the part coming from Twin Commander?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on June 13, 2020, 07:30:54 am
Hopefully when you re-assess... once back in LA... the economy and your industry along with your awesome vintner adventure will be such that you will feel confident in completing what you need to on the Commander and get to enjoy all that it has to offer for years to come.

I like your plan
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on June 13, 2020, 10:46:43 am
Good to hear Adam,  your plane would be very difficult to replace. If you win the lottery you can just add airplanes to the hangar.

SJ30- international flights
P180- domestic
Commander- backcountry
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on June 14, 2020, 09:04:19 pm
I think that's exactly the right thing to do. Is the part coming from Twin Commander?

Yes, that's my understanding.

And SkyFlyer and Steve - I'm hoping that might be the case as well! ;)

Right now I need to renew medical and get my currency in, so I'm ready to ferry when they day comes!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on August 05, 2020, 08:11:03 pm
Update.

Duct arrived and pressurization is now good. She makes the full 4.2psi, albeit at Max Flow, still. I can live with that, but they're still sealing some stuff up, so they're hopeful she'll be able to make it at Normal flow.

But.

Upon run-ups, they noticed fuel leaks from FCU where it attaches to engine on LH side. Hoping it was just a leaking gasket, upon dismantle it turned out to not be. It's actually a leak inside the FCU. Sigh. They found a tagged one for $7800, or I could have it sent in for repair. The average repair is apparently around $5K, but they say that if the drive shaft is worn, it can easily be $10K. I went for the overhaul and took my chances - will see where it ends up.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on August 05, 2020, 08:16:58 pm
The nice thing about the 4.2psi Commanders is that they generally make that without issues. Going to 5.2 was a stretch, because they didn't significantly increase the air flow, so put some leaks in there and you are back to 4.2.

Bummer about the FCU, but that's how these things go. Still, getting closer!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: SKYFLYER on August 05, 2020, 09:52:30 pm
What is the turn around time? Did they give you any estimate.

I guess "stuff" just happens but I have been pretty lucky the past couple of years not having any odd or unusual costs.

Suppose I should knock on wood as I have hots coming up.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on August 06, 2020, 12:08:01 pm
Generally, I have found Commanders to be quite reliable. However, as these airplanes get older, the ones with difficult histories and poor maintenance tend to have a lot more issues built up.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: John Wood on August 12, 2020, 10:15:32 am
Adam,

I have been working my way through this 27-page epic.  Have you been approached for the movie rights to this story?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on August 17, 2020, 12:07:24 am
Adam,

I have been working my way through this 27-page epic.  Have you been approached for the movie rights to this story?

Yeah, by a horror movie studio!  ;D
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on August 23, 2020, 06:41:24 am
Gamble did not pay off. They opened up FCU and found it needed $15K in repairs. So now I'm back to buying the one AeroAir could source for $7800 yellow tagged. But it pisses me off a little that the FCU repair place wants $2200 for just opening it up and disassembling.. Feels a little rich, but what do I know.  :-X

Aviation - death by a thousand cuts.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on August 23, 2020, 10:23:20 pm
That stinks!  Sounds rich to me also, that 20hrs of labor!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 09, 2021, 02:30:58 am
Got a fresh medical and a fresh BFR - gonna com get her soon! FAA wanted a new transponder check and just a general going-over before they'll issue ferry permit. Look forward to it.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 09, 2021, 12:29:18 pm
That sounds good!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: EricDapp on April 09, 2021, 09:41:34 pm
Adam let me know when you come up. I’d like to meet you guys up at KHIO.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Jeff Axel on April 09, 2021, 11:56:27 pm
I could attend this party as well! I see your plane every time I visit my hangar......
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 10, 2021, 05:51:56 pm
For sure, will do. I've asked the FAA to issue ferry permit on the 18th and hopefully have it valid for 10 days.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: EricDapp on April 18, 2021, 06:18:02 pm
Hey Adam, my number is 541-231-5426. Text is best. Peter and Hilda would like to meet up also when you come up. I think we will have a quorum for a commander get together. What day are you planning on coming up? Weather looks good all week.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 18, 2021, 08:31:50 pm
I'm gone all day Tuesday, but around otherwise. Let us know!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 21, 2021, 02:26:09 am
FAA has not issued ferry permit yet. I've heard it's getting harder to get FAA to issue these in general.

I've also got my last vaccine shot on Friday and heard you can feel a bit under the ice after that, so hoping for week after.

Love to meet up all! :D
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 21, 2021, 10:50:09 am
I saw that it was inside the hangar the other day, so that's good progress!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Jeff Axel on April 23, 2021, 12:36:20 am
Outside today....ready to ferry? Please let me know when you are coming up, love to say hi. My MU2 is at Global just next door to Aero Air.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 23, 2021, 02:08:23 am
No word from FAA or AeroAir. I think they just had it in to install new software and database on the IFD 540. Maybe they did some test runs, too.

I did ask FAA if they could include KAJO as final destination on the ferry permit, as that's where the interior shop is and I'd like to reposition her there after ferry. They said that wasn't a "necessary maintenance flight", so was rejected. So it seems I won't be able to get a new ferry permit for that short hop to install interior before I've got to do the engine stuff. Oh well, not the end of the world. Hoping they can drive up the interior and install it in my hangar.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 28, 2021, 02:46:28 am
Ferry permit issued. Now just nailing down the window - looks like I'll aim to come up on the 8th, then I can futz around and do some local post maintenance flights on Sunday the 9th and aim to head back on Monday, weather permitting.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 28, 2021, 10:12:04 pm
I told Richard I am planning to come out and see you off!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 08, 2021, 05:03:16 pm
Flying up tomorrow morning and will land PDX around 9.30AM, hopefully be at Aero Air around 11. Spend most pf the day putzing around the aircraft to see she's buttoned up and might take a little test flight if everything looks good. If anyone's around then, come say hi!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 08, 2021, 05:05:13 pm
Are you planning to head south on Monday?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 08, 2021, 05:47:17 pm
Yes, weather permitting.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Jeff Axel on May 09, 2021, 10:44:42 pm
Well, looks you got into the air! Congratulations, hopefully it all was good so you can go home. Sorry I couldn't get free from work to come and meet, and won't be able to tomorrow either. Have a good flight home!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 09, 2021, 11:12:46 pm
I had a great afternoon with Adam! And it was great to see the 680V back in the air.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 10, 2021, 12:39:31 am
Test flight went well! And it was great to meet Don and hang. He gave me the full tour of the airport and his hangar!

I screwed up the shutdown and the blades didn't go on the locks, but should be an easy fix tomorrow. Also had a lazy MLG light on right side where it took a long time to extinguish. Thought about cycling it, but decided to just give it a bit more time. Sure enough, light went off after a minute or so and subsequent gear swings showed no laggy light.

Tomorrow I'll aim to head home!

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on May 10, 2021, 11:54:18 am
That good news Adam.  I think everybody has done that on shut down, no worries.  Hope the weather gods are good to you!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 10, 2021, 10:39:35 pm
Back in LA!

Overall very smooth. Thing was hauling ass, actually. Was doing 250+kts at 45 degrees below max temp all the way. Stopped in Red Bluff for some fuel, hotter than three hells of course. That was a high temp start, lemme tell ya! Coming back over the basin I see most of it is covered in marine layer, and ferry permit doesn't allow IFR, so had to go east a little bit to sneak under the layer. No problem. Couldn't resist to do a high performance left closed traffic after landing at home base, just to get the juices going. So much fun!

Well, nothing that doesn't have a little bittersweet ending of course - when I open baggage compartment I see 5606 hyd fluid pooling on top of my storage bins... Sigh. Not too bad, but bad enough that it needs attention before it can fly again. I traced it up to the most inaccessible part of the whole aircraft (of course), right next to fuel tank. Why should it be easy? Hope it's just a fitting that needs tightening...

We all know how bad skills deteriorate with just a few weeks off. Except for sim work and BFR etc, I basically hadn't flow for 2 years. I was rusty. But I noticed one thing - radio work kinda never goes away. Once you've learned that, it just stays. Slotted right into that part with no effort. The landings? Hit and miss. Although the last one was smooth as glass, which made me happy to end on a good note.

One more thing - what is it with Commanders? I had barely shut down at EMT, when two random dudes roll up right after each other just to chat. They come out of the woodwork with Commanders, it was the same with the 520:

1. "Wow! Don't see these much anymore". An Old A&P that had worked on them back in the days.
2. Then  a guy rolls up in a family car and says "what kinda speeds you get out of this thing?", etc...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 11, 2021, 01:11:42 pm
Congratulations on making it back home! I hope much less time passes between this flight and the next one!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on May 11, 2021, 02:07:46 pm
Commanders draw a crowd, I love that.  Too bad about hydraulic leak at least it was outside the cabin area.

Congrats on the successful flight home.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Jeff Johnson on May 15, 2021, 01:47:25 pm
Adam,

Very exciting!  And Excited for you as well.  I know its been a very hard road for ya so enjoy and keep her flying!

I still am torn between the Aerostar and moving up to a turbine.  I guess ill let the market determine my upgrade path..

If the Aerostar doesn't sell.  Then I keep it.  Great planes!  But if it somehow does sell....  We shall see. 

Flying is the most important thing we can do.  Doesn't matter what props and engines were sitting behind or in front of in our case.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on August 11, 2021, 12:15:18 am
Working frenetically to clear my hangar so I can tow her in there. She's been sitting on the ramp for a 2 months. As soon as she's in, I'll get finishing on interior.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 13, 2021, 01:11:01 am
You know the feeling - you're rusty, plane is rusty. It's been sitting, you've been busy. Pre-flighted, fired her up, took her for a spin. But you know how it goes - you're on edge, looking for malfunctions, trying to stay ahead and not get eaten up by the smitheful earth. Was that a noise? Is that hydraulic gauge fluctuating too much? Why are panel lights sinus-waving?

Then after a few landings, left crosswind to Chino (to drop her up for her last panel upgrade - Aspen PFD that can run the A/P and rip the old Collins out). By now it's night.

And then suddenly it happens - there's nothing more to check, the panel is glowing, the carpet of the LA megaplex is below you like a tapestry of magic, you've checked out with last controller, and the air is smooth as silk on a clear night (you keep landing lights on just in case) and you finally relax. A smile comes across your face and you remember why - why we fly. Sure, the EGT gauge is acting up, but look at the view. It's just magical.

It comes at a cost, but we are lucky to be able to do this.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 13, 2021, 11:28:23 am
I love it!

I might be going into EMT in March to pick someone up... we'll see. I'll let you know if it ends up happening.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 05, 2022, 03:25:01 am
During panel upgrade, they noticed a large amount of 5605 in belly. Turns out the gear and flap valve units under the floor were leaking quite severely. They've ordered two yellow tagged ones and it should hopefully coincide with panel being ready. They've still to swing gear, but mechanics were happy otherwise and didn't find any other major egregious faults, so finers crossed I'll be back to flying soon. Can't wait.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 05, 2022, 11:46:43 am
Did you ever find a turbine wheel, or were the guys in Chino willing to sign it off as-is?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 08, 2022, 10:57:44 pm
You know how they count cycles, right? They count 4 for each hour if they can't find any clear cycle counts. I found that out after calling FAA inspector for future ferry permit to engine shop. On his advice he recommended me to get another A&P to go over the books again and see if they can't find a more correct number, so that's what I did. Turns out I have 67 cycles left and I intend to use every single one of them! I do also have a wheel, but it only has about 500 cycles on it, so probably not worth putting in. But there are other wheels out there, Hancock has a few and I'm sure the others do too.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 09, 2022, 12:04:46 pm
That's interesting. I recall hearing it was 1 cycle for every hour unless you could show otherwise, but maybe your -1s are different.

I'm glad to hear that you have some cycles left!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 22, 2022, 08:18:48 pm
Nothing is easy or quick in aviation...

Valves stuck in snowstorm on a truck.

Then Aspen need to know the interface to the old H-14 A/P. I, in my infinite ignorance thought it was just simply an analog ARINC-style converter that gives the A/P the heading and alt info, but apparently it's not that simple. They had to contact Eagle Creek that have done a lot of conversions, now that schematic has been sent off to Aspen and they're waiting on their response to figure out what converter to use. Sigh. Another month at least, most likely.

But at least I got the glare shield re-covered with black on top, and the tan underneath. Looks real snazzy!

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on February 22, 2022, 10:51:42 pm
Pictures?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on April 17, 2022, 07:15:11 pm
Normal Earle is parting out a 680V. I think it was the one for sale recently, but now you can get the parts you need without buying the whole plane.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 19, 2022, 07:57:49 am
How do I get in contact with Norman Earle?

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on April 19, 2022, 10:19:13 am
He's on BeechTalk frequently. Here's his ad on Barnstormers.

TURBO/TWIN COMMANDER 680V • PARTS FOR SALE • Parting complete undamaged aircraft. Miller nose, gear, controls, air cycle etc. • Contact Norman Earle , - located Hendersonville, NC 28792 United States • Telephone: 386-689-0244 • Posted April 16, 2022
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 21, 2022, 06:18:11 am
He's on BeechTalk frequently. Here's his ad on Barnstormers.

TURBO/TWIN COMMANDER 680V • PARTS FOR SALE • Parting complete undamaged aircraft. Miller nose, gear, controls, air cycle etc. • Contact Norman Earle , - located Hendersonville, NC 28792 United States • Telephone: 386-689-0244 • Posted April 16, 2022

Thanks! Did contact him.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 12, 2022, 06:41:43 pm
Latest updates:

Well, after 4 months and lots of back and forth between Aspen, Eagle Creek, Collins etc, they've come to the conclusion they cannot drive the A/P from the new Aspen, even though they initially said they could. In my world it seems like the easiest thing in the world - just convert digital heading and alt info into analog and have that drive the H-14. But apparently Eagle Creek had tried that with a previous install and it didn't go well. So the cheerily offered me to install a new A/P for about $100K... No thanks. So, the old Collins/Sperry goes back in and that's the end of that. Sorry to say, but I'm OK with it now, just sad that it took 4 months to get to this conclusion. I also understand the avionics shop's frustration, they've spent close to 100hrs troubleshooting and calling various engineering teams and they won't really get paid for that. All around just a bum deal for all.

Anyway, not all of that time was wasted. We overhauled a lot of the hydraulic actuators and did a mini-phase inspection, so that was good. Waiting on last actuators end of May, and then gear swings etc and the she should be out of there. I can't wait to go flying again.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Steve binnette on May 15, 2022, 10:35:25 am
That’s not all bad news.  Getting it back in the air is big.

I flew the first couple of years of my career without an AP.  Sure they are nice but you get comfortable quick without one.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 15, 2022, 01:22:37 pm
Steve - after the major panel upgrade about 3 years ago, the A/P never worked. Flew her to Tulsa that way and got it fixed at Autopilot Central. No real problem, except LA Center got mad at me for not being precise in my altitude enough.  ;)

And I did 350hrs in the old piston Commander without, as well. Like you said, you get used to it. For me, the most important thing is to have alt hold, everything else I can actually do without.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 15, 2022, 02:39:53 pm
Whoever sold you the Aspen and told you it would work is the issue here. I'm not at all surprised, because this issue is why Eagle Creek wanted the S-Tec 3100 certified-- to solve it. So this is a long known issue.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on May 16, 2022, 07:20:02 pm
Adam - seems like you spent more than 1/2 the time it would have taken to install something simple like an S-TEC.  Eagle Creek would have no more knowledge of an H14 than anyone born after 1980 and even I can tell you that no one is interfacing that old autopilot to anything modern.  I was told 30 years ago not to bother touching anything with an H14 or M4 for that matter. Same with the FCS810. Good advice I didn’t take.  Tried to couple an FCS810 with a G600 - waste of time!   I even regret leaving the Century III in the Shrike. It’s old junk that no one knows how to fix. Sorry, but a lot of this old stuff has lived past its expiration date so don’t waste anymore time on it. Just my .02.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 16, 2022, 11:54:44 pm
It's $100K when all is said and done. Don't need to be able to do a coupled approach that bad.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 17, 2022, 12:12:06 am
So, I'm confused. Are you keeping the Aspen and won't have an autopilot, or are you keeping the old autopilot and getting rid of the Aspen? Or something else entirely?

It's $100K when all is said and done. Don't need to be able to do a coupled approach that bad.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 17, 2022, 12:10:48 pm
Getting rid of Aspen and going back to how it was.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 17, 2022, 01:12:20 pm
And then, I imagine, you will have heading and altitude hold, and maybe GPS steering?

If it all works, that's not too bad. I would think that autopilot would be capable of a coupled ILS as well? Maybe not a good coupled ILS, but at least in theory?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on May 17, 2022, 02:41:21 pm
Adam - a system 65 is on the AML for the 680 I believe.  I would think the basic install would be less than $100k?  Someone put one in my 601P. Works perfect.  Flying such a nice plane without a reliable AP seems like a tough one.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 17, 2022, 05:20:54 pm
As far as I know, the 65 is the only A/P approved for the pre-690 series. And that's a pretty old A/P in itself. Has the S-Tec 3100 been certified? My friend Stan has the 65 in his 681, works like a charm. But I think it's over $60K new, then you'd easily spend $20-40K on the install, realistically. Lot of cables and servos that need to work back there...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 17, 2022, 05:27:50 pm
I'm pretty sure the 3100 STC covers the 680 series, but you would have to check to be sure. I would guess the install costs between the 3100 and the 65 would be pretty similar, since you are doing new servos, etc for either one. I would guess the 3100 would be less than $100k installed, but the age of your airplane might result in some increased costs.

If you did go the 3100 route, or even just want a quote, I would go to Eagle Creek and not to your local yokel avionics shop, who have already not covered themselves with glory in this whole process...
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: seanmcgillivray on May 19, 2022, 09:37:22 pm
My local shop has done two 3100s (both for me).

My Aerostar and I did the 2100 to 3100 upgrade.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Bruce Byerly on May 23, 2022, 11:07:53 am
We certified the 2100 in the 690 and are installing 3100’s everyday.

They are still struggling with issues on the latest update. I plan to put one in my 840 this year.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 23, 2022, 01:53:08 pm
I'm very happy with the 3100, although I have never been able to get the latest update even though it was promised to me when they installed the autopilot (in writing). That said, if it never changes again, I'm still happy with it.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: EricDapp on May 23, 2022, 02:25:16 pm
We certified the 2100 in the 690 and are installing 3100’s everyday.

They are still struggling with issues on the latest update. I plan to put one in my 840 this year.
[/quote

What is the price of installation of a 3100 in a 840 that has a Factory Collins?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: seanmcgillivray on May 24, 2022, 12:33:47 am
I'm very happy with the 3100, although I have never been able to get the latest update even though it was promised to me when they installed the autopilot (in writing). That said, if it never changes again, I'm still happy with it.

I have a 1.4 box in my plane.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on May 24, 2022, 12:36:39 am
I'm envious! I would like to have 1.4, but 1.3 is definitely superior to my AP106.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 13, 2022, 12:22:40 am
Another year passed. She's ready over at Chino. Bill came in a bit more than I'd hoped again, so I'll get her out here early Jan and get to fly her a bit. But now the hydraulics are overhauled, at least. Gonna have to do some airwork and an IPC to get back in the comfort zone - hopefully just a long day.

Been tough financially these years, can't lie. Told my wife I was going to sell her to ease the pain. But now I'm going back on my word (she was not happy when I approached the subject ;D). Market has turned and I don't think I could sell her for what I want anyway. Plus, the airport requires that you own an aircraft to get aviation rate at the hangar, so that's my new excuse.. ;) If I did sell her, I'd never be able to get back into this kind of plane ever again. Only have so many years left of flying, right? Might change my mind still, but that's where my mind is now.

I've been missing it.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on December 13, 2022, 12:49:47 am
Did you get the interior all back in? We need some pictures!
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 17, 2022, 05:49:47 pm
No, that goes in here in Jan as soon as she's back.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 09, 2023, 12:08:03 pm
You who follow the channel might have seen this already... It's now been a month waiting on a rubber seal... :o

https://youtu.be/_XmIuI0cLh0 (https://youtu.be/_XmIuI0cLh0)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on March 09, 2023, 12:36:07 pm
Did this start because you tried to drain some fuel from that drain?

Personally, I never, ever drain anything from those drains, because of this exact (potential) issue.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 10, 2023, 08:59:23 pm
No, I didn't touch the drains. It was already stuck open somehow. Maybe the maintenance guys had touched it before.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on March 11, 2023, 12:05:27 pm
I had a drain on my C340 stick open once. Nothing would fix it; we had to wait until the tank was empty to leave. Fortunately it was the 3rd aux tank, so it only changed my range by 40 minutes or so.

When we disassembled the valve we found the ring of a drilled-out pop rivet stuck inside it. The last recorded maintenance on the tank was 11 years earlier.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 22, 2023, 01:09:43 pm
Took her out for a spin yesterday.

Initially, the left EGT gauge was a little intermittent, so we did a high speed taxi and returned to clean the cannon plug in the firewall and re-safety wire that. On second startup it seemed  a lot better, so we decided to go for a spin, which was fun. I had instructor with me, as it had been awhile since I was up in the air. Made a 1hr loop to shake things out, but the EGT was still shorting out and dropping intermittently. Hmm, so the cannon plug cleaning wasn't the solution...

And after calling my old friend Stan Perkins, who's a guru with his 681, I now understand why: The engine plug in the firewall isn't the cannon plug at all. It's the banana-plug next to it. We'd been tightening and cleaning the wrong plug!

So next week we'll clean and re-tighten that and hopefully that will take care of it. If it's still intermittent after that, only thing left to check is swapping the EGT gauges top see if follows the instrument itself.

But we're close. Real close to getting out of there.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on April 22, 2023, 01:49:05 pm
Awesome! Glad you are out flying.
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 28, 2023, 01:49:43 pm
Aircraft is safely back at home airport and now interior gets replaced here in May, hopefully.

Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: JimC on April 29, 2023, 11:40:44 am
Ooooo..I'd be so reluctant to put her back in the shop so quickly. Any thoughts on just flying her for a while with the interior as-is?
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on April 29, 2023, 11:52:01 am
Oh, I'll sneak a few trips in;)
Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: Adam Frisch on August 03, 2023, 12:57:34 pm
Everything takes twice as long - especially when you're doing most of the work yourself. But interior is almost done now. Here's the door finished:



Title: Re: Stepping up to old 680V turbine...
Post by: donv on August 03, 2023, 04:49:30 pm
Awesome! That is going to be beautiful.