Twin Commander
General Category => Airframe => Twin Commander Piston => Topic started by: Willis on October 08, 2015, 08:09:05 pm
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Ive been lurking and lusting over Twin Commanders for most of my life. The time and opportunity has come that I can now fullfill that desire and Im seriously considering a 500B, and would like comments from those that have or have flown them.
My Geographic boundries are the American West; I live in California but have family and friends from Seattle to Houston and many parts in between.
My interests. While I must like flying, I also do a lot of hiking and camping, which means carrying lots of gear and supplies. it also means I'd like my AC to get into some places others cannot. It must be comfortable on grass and dirt strips and certainly under 3000' at SL.
Turbo/not. I have my opinions on turbocharging. So far there are few than have done it well. The early geared/superchargers were problematic and being clockwork drivenl; prone to maintenance. MY personal favorite turbocharing system would be a manual wastegate that lets me decide what altitude the manifold thinks its working. But thats another arguement.
So, Im looking and hoping to pull the pin next year (after new years). Id appreciate your comments and insights.
Thanks.
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Well, I share your desires and needs and I opted for a 680FP which allowed me to also get higher. After flying my non turbo charged Cessna 310Q out west a few times I decided that I needed something with more output at high elevations. The 680 has superchargers and from everything I've read about them they are pretty solid systems. I hope this proves to be true.
From my research the plane you're looking at would fit your needs perfectly but not sure where I would stand on supercharger if I was flying out west all the time. I can't offer any advise on actually flying the planes yet as I have owned one that hasn't gotten out of the shop for 3 months now. It seems close (hopefully in next week) so hopefully can say more soon. :0-)
There are plenty of others that I'm sure can pipe in on the plane you're looking at.
Good luck and hope you find the plane you're looking for as it would be great having you around.
Glenn
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Can't go wrong with a 500B. They pretty much had it nailed down by then and the aircraft is a great performer and almost perfect in all regards. If you need some extra performance, the Merlyn 350hp converted ones are great. Dave Phifer flies his Merlyn conversion out of his personal grass strip that's seriously short.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeoJiu7or_M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeoJiu7or_M)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0mBZqpRZQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0mBZqpRZQ)
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Awesome videos. I hope to post a few of my 680FP going in and out of our 2900' strip soon. Because of the latest delays its looking like I won't get the plane for a couple more weeks. :-(
Glenn
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Although heavy, the 680FP has great power and should be a good short field performer.
Jim Metzger taught me how to do short field takeoffs in the 520, and it was a real eye opener what can be done with Commanders if you need to. 2/3 flaps, yoke in your stomach and the 520 started climbing out at around 45kts. It was insane. A 680FP probably a bit higher, but once you get comfortable with it, you should try and see what numbers you might get. Think you will be surprised. BTW, none of this was published stuff from the POH, it was just Jim's experience.
Remember, the stall speed power on is significantly different from the stall speed power off. On the 520 the power on stall speed was an insane 35kts. Can't remember the stall speed dirty, but it was quite a bit higher, probably around 49kts. So if yours has a stall speed of, let's say, 60kts dirty, I bet it's around 50kts power on, which is what you'd use for a short field takeoff.
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Thanks for the info. I know all about nothing being published in the POH though as it is almost totally useless. I don't think I've seen a worse excuse for a POH but I'm sure they are out there. :-)
Glenn
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I know - the 520 POH was literally 5 stenciled pages together!
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Swede used to call that a "fishing takeoff." Full power, hold the brakes, push the flap lever down, release the brakes, full back on the yoke, once in the air push the flap lever back up, accelerate, and raise the gear.
At least, that's how I think it went-- it was sort of one smooth motion all at once.
Jim Metzger taught me how to do short field takeoffs in the 520, and it was a real eye opener what can be done with Commanders if you need to. 2/3 flaps, yoke in your stomach and the 520 started climbing out at around 45kts. It was insane. A 680FP probably a bit higher, but once you get comfortable with it, you should try and see what numbers you might get. Think you will be surprised. BTW, none of this was published stuff from the POH, it was just Jim's experience.
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Great technique, but how long will you live.
Just image rotating at 45kts dirty and bingo a failed engine, you'll be on your back before you could possibly respond.
For pity sake fly the aircraft like it is supposed to be flown by the numbers and stay alive.
My first twin I owned and trained on was a Lockheed 12A, and my trainer was an airline pilot. Result I'm still alive despite in my flying career a total disintegration of a Citation engine on rotate, a blade parting company on a twin Comanche and a total engine failure and dead stick landing over a built up area in a chipmunk
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I agree. I fly out of short fields all the time in my 310 and will be in the Commander (if I ever get it back). I'm perfectly ok counting leaves at the end of the runway as long as I've got the speed to comfortably recover from an engine failure. I never lift off just for the sake of getting off the ground and always sit beside the runway until I get above blue line. The fact is, all airplanes can get off the ground quicker than people take them with the right application of force. But what's the point?
Glenn
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No, that's all good procedure and I do the same. If I have the runway, I'll use most of it and try to rotate at blue line. But sometimes you have no choice. And the point of owning a Commander is that they can get into airfields no other twin can get into. It's part of the charm of owning them.
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I guess that is another way to look at it. I just don't HAVE to get into those fields. To be clear I'm not one of those guys that fly's only out of 5k strips. But I also try to be as safe as I can. It is nice to know it can do it though if needed. :-)
Glenn
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Did I ever post the link to my short takeoff in the 520? Forgive me if a I did. The thing is off in 600ft, and I'm sure it could be shortened even a bit more with less fuel and a better pilot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zEhHJkUERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zEhHJkUERE)
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Nope, haven't seen that one but nice.
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Indeed!
Ive watched it a dozen times. Never gets old.
I noticed a newly posted ad for a 500B in NY,NY
http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1394815/1963-aero-commander-500b
It seems to have been a commuter airliner, 14k hours. For a part 91 guy, this could be a good bird. {provided all the ususal prebuy/analysis caveats}
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It's an old ex-Central Air bird. John Towner flies the shit out of them, but he does take care of them. Some of his 500B's have 20000hr+ on them. Surprised this doesn't have his proprietary TKS de-ice system. But maybe it sold to current owner before he got the STC.
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It's an old ex-Central Air bird. John Towner flies the shit out of them, but he does take care of them. Some of his 500B's have 20000hr+ on them. Surprised this doesn't have his proprietary TKS de-ice system. But maybe it sold to current owner before he got the STC.
Im wondering if its worthy of upkeep/restoration or is it an 80 kilo-dollar sink-hole. Thoughts?
Im also looking at an ex gov't 500B that flew with the USFS; has 11,000 hrs.
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The USFS plane is going to have done more low level survey work, is my guess. That might sometimes add more stress to the frame. Then again, the other one has 3000hr more on it and was flown in all kinds of weather. But, mainly at night, so perhaps more in smooth air. Again, it's in the midwest where the storms can get pretty rough in the winters.
Basically, I think it's a wash. Only an inspection will be able to tell if there are any issues. But the hrs in themselves I wouldn't be afraid of per se, but you have to be prepared to be its last owner. Once they get up 10000+hrs, even if there's nothing wrong with them at all, buyers perception will make it very hard to get much value out of them when the day comes to sell it. And that day always comes. But if you're happy with that, it can be a good deal.
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The USFS aircraft might not have actually belonged to the GOVT. but been contracted for thru another operator... as for value I agree with Adam as either one of them will be difficult to sell down the road due to the 10k+ hours not to mention the insurance factor.. Now having said all this.. the Towner aircraft will have been maintained to the 9's as John's operation had been known for exacting maintenance. But how the current owner has kept it you will only know thru the pre-buy.
If possible go have a walk-around look at both and you will come away with a gut feeling of which one you feel is the better of the two and do the pre-buy on that one. Except for a fresh paint job which has sold more junk aircraft than Carter has little pills.. the rest of the aircraft will show if cared for or not so well cared for.
Regardless, of which one you may end up with you will need to remember it is an awesome machine but cost heaps to keep that way.
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Well, if it comes to a choice, a major factor is the logistics of both aircraft.
Im based in Ca/Az so the USFS is much easier to deal with.
There are also human/factors: 1. Maintenance for this AC may have been done in AZ near Phx. with a firm that operates 5 or 6- 500Bs for the FS. 2. Friends/Family are currently working FS/Fire or as first responders; so that "Cache" appeals to me.
lastly, I just found a HUGE hangar thats been standing empty for many years that could accommodate the AC and my C210 (and possibly 2 other smaller planes (cubs, etc).
So, Im really getting stoked on buying/restoring a 500 class Aero Commander. :)
Thanks.
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So it begs the question... how far away is the hangar??? And can you get it?? If the answers are near by and yes... than you are one lucky guy.. Your knowledge of the USFS aircraft clearly gives it a leg-up... and as you point out the logistics are there as well...
But the hangar would be just totally awesome...
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I recently bought a place in Williams AZ, about 50 mi south of Grand Canyon. Small town with 6000' runway and 10 new hangars. An older one (70x70) has been empty since a small operator failed and its been empty for at least 3 years. I live about 5 minutes away :) !!! Ive spoken to the City Airport "manager" and Im setting up a site visit. Im thinking I can negotiate a long term annual lease at a reduced rate compared to a 'month to month' lease. I may have to wait another month or so to pull the pin.
Im still in the process of moving my base from CA to AZ, which may take 6 mo. or so (family factors dominate; I could be here permanently tomorrow if it were just me).
So, my plan to buy, keep, maintain, love and heap loads of praise, money and adoration on my AC500 is coming to fruition.....just not fast enough for me. (Its like Christmas will never get here) :)
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Is it the one just to the north of the terminal building on the same ramp with the arch roof or the next pad to the north with a flat roof??? Seems I recall the one just to the north being a city or county service building... But it has been a few moons since I was there
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That sounds like a great setup!
I wouldn't worry about the high time, personally-- true, it's cheap to buy and it will be cheap to sell, but that's not a bad deal. One of my favorite Commanders is a 1000 with about 14,000 hours on it-- works great, and always has.
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That sounds like a great setup!
I wouldn't worry about the high time, personally-- true, it's cheap to buy and it will be cheap to sell, but that's not a bad deal. One of my favorite Commanders is a 1000 with about 14,000 hours on it-- works great, and always has.
The owner is in Sacto and the plane is in Van Nuys.
Once the "stars align" and I can get my mechanic down there, we'll see about an offer. :)
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Willis if your looking at the Orange and white forest service plane Google the N number. It was sold at auction not too long ago for the mid seventies. Offer low. It's been for sale a while
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What's the elevation there? If it's close to the Grand Canyon, I'm guessing it's pretty high. In that case, I would absolutely want turbocharging in a Shrike.
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Elevation is ~6500MSL. Yes, TC or TN would be nice. Otherwise, I learned to fly in nearby Flagstaff (7011 MSL).
Procedures are required and you definitely lean to peak RPM.
It also helps to have a 6000' runway. ;D
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I think at those sort of field elevations, turbocharging (in a Shrike, at least) is pretty much mandatory. If you're thinking of buying one without turbos, be sure to demo it from your home field first-- and try pulling back an engine and see what happens.
Especially when summer rolls around...