Twin Commander

General Category => Buying A Twin Commander => Topic started by: JMA on December 23, 2016, 11:42:55 am

Title: Pricing
Post by: JMA on December 23, 2016, 11:42:55 am
Steve/Don/Bruce-
Curious if you would know a rough estimate of the going price of a 980, looking down the road a bit.
If details are needed let me know.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on December 24, 2016, 01:59:56 am
Well, I think the sad 980 sets the low end of the bar:

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1442491/1980-commander-980

I see in the other thread they're down to $160k now?

Anyway, that's the bottom of the market.

I think, assuming a reasonably well cared for airplane, that it really depends on the engines. I'm going to guess $600k with runout engines, to $1.1-1.2 million with newly overhauled engines and updated avionics.

Please take that with a big grain of salt, as I'm not in the market, and only see the occasional asking price and read threads on here.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 24, 2016, 04:07:11 pm
If you'd asked me about 2 years ago I would have said $500-800K. But now, I think Donv's numbers are spot on. Sucks for me, because that was my next step. But maybe by the time I get ready for a change, we have a new economic crisis on our hands.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on December 24, 2016, 06:02:56 pm
Adam, it's funny because I would have guessed that the prices have been relatively stable over the last 5 years... if anything, maybe down a little bit over the last year or two.

Bruce would be the one who knows.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on December 26, 2016, 02:42:35 pm
JMA, I would add that personally, I'm a sucker for pristine histories, one owner, etc. However, I'm not in the market for a Commander, and I don't necessarily get the sense that others care as much about that stuff as I do.

Yours is probably the last one-owner Jetprop in existence, and that's pretty special-- but most likely only to someone like me.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on December 26, 2016, 03:15:26 pm
Adam, it's funny because I would have guessed that the prices have been relatively stable over the last 5 years... if anything, maybe down a little bit over the last year or two.

Bruce would be the one who knows.

Market has def gone up. You used to see sub-$450K 690's all the time, but they're rare today and when they turn up they either need SB241 done, have high time -5's or some other thing that needs immediate attention.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: JMA on December 27, 2016, 12:06:54 pm
Thanks Don- yeah just trying to guess a 'ballpark' range.
I'm in agreement with you, love the history.  Longest tenant at PHL Atlantic Aviation...
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Bruce Byerly on December 27, 2016, 06:00:43 pm
Thanks Don- yeah just trying to guess a 'ballpark' range.
I'm in agreement with you, love the history.  Longest tenant at PHL Atlantic Aviation...

Jason - until you want to sell, it doesn't really matter outside of an insurance value.

A 980 is worth from $25k (see SAD 980) to about $1.9 depending on the plane. Or, whatever someone is willing to pay for it at that moment! 

Your dad seems sharp so don't sell his plane yet!
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on December 28, 2016, 01:37:21 pm
$1.9 for a 980? Have you put any G950s into 980s, or even 840s?
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: JMA on December 29, 2016, 01:01:16 pm
1.9!!! WOW!
I figure Im looking down the road 1-2 years...
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Bruce Byerly on January 04, 2017, 12:44:19 pm
1.9!!! WOW!
I figure Im looking down the road 1-2 years...

I don't mean to get you excited, my point with that number is if one does everything short of a Renaissance, that's what it will likely cost. You can spend $500k on a panel.  Right now there are fantastic planes around $1m plus or minus.  Lots of plane for the money in today's market. It's a good time to buy.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Steve binnette on January 14, 2017, 01:02:12 pm
Timing has a lot to do with it.  Sometimes all you see are 690s for sale, but right now there has been a bunch of good jetprops competing with each other.

It's a great time to buy a jetprop but I would wait to sell one until the cycle repeats itself.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: JMA on January 14, 2017, 01:50:52 pm
Thanks all for the input...  I keep an eye on controller but 'call for price' doesn't really give you any ideas.
Will be a sad day when we let the ol' girl go.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 14, 2017, 02:02:46 pm
Whenever Call for Price is there you already know they want too much for it. Every time.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 15, 2017, 11:36:00 am
I keep an eye on Controller, and it seems like many of those airplanes have been on the market for years and years... to me, that's a sign that the price is too high and they don't really want to sell.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 15, 2017, 01:23:13 pm
Yes, there are a few who, shall we say, need a little sniff of the smelling salt. An example:

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1432565/commander-840 (http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1432565/commander-840)

$1.1mill for an 840 with -5's? Surely, they jest.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 15, 2017, 01:56:52 pm
And, from Venezuela most of it's life. That might be okay, but it certainly isn't a plus.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 15, 2017, 01:57:26 pm
I find this to be a really useful site, if you are interested in the history of individual airplanes:

http://rzjets.net/aircraft/?page=13&typeid=278
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 15, 2017, 02:36:32 pm
I find this to be a really useful site, if you are interested in the history of individual airplanes:

http://rzjets.net/aircraft/?page=13&typeid=278

Great link!
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Jonathan Gray on January 15, 2017, 03:12:50 pm
The add says dash 10 engines but then says TPE331-5. I wonder what they really are?  If would have be a -10 for over a million right?
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 15, 2017, 03:19:38 pm
Even with 10's, above $1mill is pushing it.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 15, 2017, 07:29:49 pm
It has Dash 10s. You can tell by looking at the EGT gauges in the panel picture.

Dash 10 conversions will have a yellow zone, with a little pointer around the edge of the gauge. Dash 5s just have a normal redline.

A 980 or 1000 will have a normal redline, along with little red lights in the EGT gauges, and more obviously, orange auto-start override buttons somewhere on the panel.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 16, 2017, 06:00:58 pm
This is another useful one:

https://www.planelogger.com/Aircraft/ConstructionList/690C%20Turbo%20Commander%20Jetprop%20840

https://www.planelogger.com/Aircraft/ConstructionList/695%20Turbo%20Commander%20Jetprop%20980

https://www.planelogger.com/Aircraft/ConstructionList/690%20Turbo%20Commander
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Steve binnette on January 18, 2017, 05:00:02 am
Interesting website Don, thanks

I cannot believe how many 980s are registered outside the country!
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 18, 2017, 11:39:04 am
That's true. The South Americans really like them, I think because of the high density altitudes.

Also remarkable how many were stolen, and never recovered! I think that's why Bruce said he couldn't even confirm the serial number of the sad 980...
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: JMA on August 25, 2017, 12:17:54 pm
N51DM in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP0ko4bZgFo
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on August 25, 2017, 01:51:37 pm
I think that interior is what's keeping it on the market, though. It's really idiosyncratic, and I can't imagine that most people would want it-- yet who would want to tear it out and start over?
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: SKYFLYER on August 25, 2017, 02:53:20 pm
I had a 1958 chevy with those custom seats.  Would not be too interested in reliving that era every time I decided to go flying.  I am with Don... Not sure why ANYONE would put that kind of interior (and lest we not bring up the exterior paint job) in a Million dollar plus aircraft and then try to sell it. Maybe... if the current owner did it to their taste and planned on keeping it.
But to each their own I guess.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on August 25, 2017, 04:11:52 pm
The paint's not really to my taste either, but I could live with it... which is not the case with the interior.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on September 03, 2017, 04:39:01 pm
There has to be a back story to N51DM. I can't imagine someone bought it for resale and did that paint and interior... more likely they bought it intending to keep it and then circumstances forced a sale. I assume Bruce would know...
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on September 03, 2017, 05:10:37 pm
Don't mind the interior that much, but the carbon fibre refreshment centers - ugh. Seems otherwise to be a very nice plane.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: JMA on January 25, 2018, 09:39:58 am
Bruce- been out there for a bit now, no bites?  Other than putting in G600, anything missing on it?

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/20609597/1980-commander-980
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 25, 2018, 12:13:38 pm
Price was lowered from $895k, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 25, 2018, 05:01:11 pm
This thing has pretty much everything I want. Schiff ACM, LR tanks etc. But right now I just can't financially.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Bruce Byerly on January 25, 2018, 05:57:21 pm
Bruce- been out there for a bit now, no bites?  Other than putting in G600, anything missing on it?

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/20609597/1980-commander-980

Nice plane.  I expect it to sell given the interest levels. Frankly would have sold this week for sure but the pilot preferrred the stock environmental system.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Bruce Byerly on January 25, 2018, 05:59:10 pm
Price was lowered from $895k, wasn't it?

Yes. $795!
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Bruce Byerly on January 25, 2018, 06:05:49 pm
This thing has pretty much everything I want. Schiff ACM, LR tanks etc. But right now I just can't financially.

Adam; what kind of payments are you looking for?   :D ;D
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 25, 2018, 06:26:39 pm
Another Sundstrand fan out there?


Nice plane.  I expect it to sell given the interest levels. Frankly would have sold this week for sure but the pilot preferrred the stock environmental system.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 26, 2018, 01:21:56 am
It does seem like prices have come down a bit on Commanders, or on Jetprops at least...
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 26, 2018, 04:10:46 am
Adam; what kind of payments are you looking for?   :D ;D

I would like to be able to own any plane I buy outright, but have thought about financing as well. But that's a whole other ball of wax. Maybe for another thread, but here's the reality of financing:

Spoken to a few lenders in the past. Dorr, Air1st, AOPA and a few others when I was looking years back. Dorr was the most responsive, but after awhile it was clear that most aircraft lenders you see are only brokers - so is Dorr. Very few of them actually carry your loan. They're selling them on as soon as they're approved, and therefore they need to be conforming loans. So the only thing you're going to get out of brokers are vanilla loans. What I mean by that is they'll look at your tax return and cash flow and that's it. They don't care if you own real estate outright, if you are multimillionaire in assets, or if you own an aircraft, care very little if your company is profitable etc. They only care about your personal 1040's. And you will have to personally guarantee the loan, even if your corp buys the plane. If you want someone to see the bigger picture, or take other assets into account, you need to find a bank that actually carries the loan themselves. Bank of Montana is one such, but there are a few others.

Again, just an exercise in calculation: to be able to fit a $795K (let's say with 20% down) plane on your 1040, with a debt-to-income ratio of max 40% (which is where they max out), you're looking at an income of about $200K if you have no other loans whatsoever. Most of us have a house payment and a car payment on top of that, so in reality are looking at $400-500K/year on your 1040. I don't know about other self employed people, but very few people I know pull that kind of money out on paper, even the really successful ones. The ones I know find ways to keep that in the company and not tax it all away. 

Maybe the bigger corporations have access to capital etc that I don't know about. But all the lenders I spoke to want max 40% DTI ratio and to personally guarantee the loan (even if your corporation buys the plane). Feels to me that if you can pull out $500K on paper on your tax return, you can probably also afford to pay $795K in cash. So not sure who these airplane loans are made for or who actually gets them...

So, only thing left to hope for is my Bitcoins to shoot through the roof!  ;)
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 26, 2018, 11:25:31 am
Hopefully you bought your bitcoins a few years back... in which case, go for Bruce's 1000!

Don't forget that your 680 is worth something as a trade-in, especially given all the work you've done.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Steve binnette on January 27, 2018, 10:37:23 am
It does seem like prices have come down a bit on Commanders, or on Jetprops at least...

I agree it is a good time to buy a jet prop.  About a year ago there was more on the market than I have ever seen.

Slowly the number of jet props for sale on the internet have come back to normal.  Maybe that bunch from a year ago caused some pressure on pricing.

Go for it Adam! Maybe the owner will carry some of the loan?
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on January 30, 2018, 04:30:22 pm
I see the 980 is gone from Controller... another potential new member, maybe?
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Steve binnette on February 01, 2018, 10:28:10 pm
Somebody got a good deal!  That plane looked nice.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 14, 2018, 11:51:55 pm
Seems like the Turbo Commander prices have crept up quite a bit. Is this reflected in real sales prices, or just wishful listings? I just saw a $1mill 840. Very nice, with -10's, but still a high time 840 with old avionics.... ::)
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on February 18, 2020, 11:32:23 pm
How much are they asking for N126M?
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 21, 2020, 04:51:28 am
How much are they asking for N126M?

Is that the one that hit a deer on takeoff?
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: JMA on February 21, 2020, 08:45:08 am
That was 51DM.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on February 21, 2020, 01:16:21 pm
N126M is a nice 980 which has been on and off the market a few times since I've bought mine. Just curious, since there are generally so few 980s on the market.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: Bruce Byerly on February 22, 2020, 04:47:48 pm
I think $1.2 or 3 last I heard. Probably worth it. Nice plane.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: donv on February 22, 2020, 11:48:41 pm
Wow, quite a bit more than I was expecting. Does seem like a good airplane, though.
Title: Re: Pricing
Post by: JMA on February 24, 2020, 01:42:26 pm
Thats right Bruce, that the one you had at 'parade of planes'... almost clipped a pole right :)