Twin Commander

General Category => Airframe => Twin Commander Turbine => Topic started by: JMA on February 19, 2018, 01:21:32 pm

Title: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on February 19, 2018, 01:21:32 pm
Question-I will ask Bruce/Don- why on the 690 series then again on the 695A/B did you have a the leading edge added for the tail (as below, I believe they call it the dorsal fin), but yet the 980 did not?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 19, 2018, 01:29:35 pm
Good question!

The easiest way to spot an 840 or a 980 is the lack of dorsal fin. In the beginning I thought they looked "naked" without them, but now I actually think they look best this way. The 690A/B fin is very easy to spot as it has a a straight incline. The ugliest fin is the one on the 900/1000 model, in my opinion. It's got a weird curve to it.

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on February 19, 2018, 02:04:36 pm
I agree, I think its a 'cleaner' look.

The 1000 does seem an odd angle, but then again, N51DM is 1000 with no dorsal?


Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 19, 2018, 02:27:50 pm
Great question, and I don't know the answer. I'm sure that there was some reason for it... but you'd think the 980 would need it and the 840 wouldn't, not the other way around. It can't make that much of a difference.

It seems to cause corrosion problems:

http://twincommander.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Maintenance-Alert-TCA-Dorsal-fin-Service-Alert.pdf

Twin Commander has come out with a couple of replacement fins, etc as custom kits.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on February 22, 2018, 07:26:01 am
I think the engineers finally beat back the marketing department and got back to closer to perfect - like a 500 model  ;D

The big fairings look cool but just cost money, and may trap moisture which leads to nothing good  when combined with steel fasteners.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on February 26, 2018, 08:47:11 am
Sorry not necessarily a 980 question...

On the -5, you would see a full exhaust, sometimes full metal, sometimes painted white...
How come I have seen some -5 with the exhaust cut diagonally like the -10... is there is a difference, why the change?

Not sure if that question is asked correctly, but hope it makes sense.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 26, 2018, 11:29:08 am
I think it makes it look iike a -10...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on February 26, 2018, 12:48:01 pm
Ah, just trying to look more powerful... got it...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Mike Floyd on March 07, 2018, 12:22:03 am
I think it makes it look iike a -10...
CK161 – Exhaust Duct Mod - $13,412.73ea
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 10, 2018, 12:50:48 am
The other one is the "stinger" tail on some 690As...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on March 13, 2018, 06:50:34 pm
Sorry not necessarily a 980 question...

On the -5, you would see a full exhaust, sometimes full metal, sometimes painted white...
How come I have seen some -5 with the exhaust cut diagonally like the -10... is there is a difference, why the change?

Not sure if that question is asked correctly, but hope it makes sense.

All 680 through 690B have the augmenter style exhaust tube in which the exhaust pipe enters a larger duct and the air gap between them is used to pull air over the oil cooler.  Therefore, the early planes have no oil cooler doors. The later planes just have an exhaust s duct without the larger tube plus the cowl flaps.  The -10 conversion on a 690A/B exchanges the early exhaust for the later exhaust, for example.  Does this make sense?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on March 14, 2018, 02:48:31 pm
Understood... wealth of knowledge!

Shame, for another post section I know, but airspeed was well over 400kts, no pics though to prove it...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on March 15, 2018, 07:29:54 pm
We’ll if we are showing 980 GS here is one 406kts.

I could do that for hours!! :)

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 16, 2018, 12:19:46 am
Steve, it looks like your pressurization does about the same as mine! Plenty of air, but 5.0psi is all it will do, so the cabin is generally about 1,000 feet above the altitude the controller indicates for that airplane altitude. Apparently it's just a controller tolerance issue.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on March 16, 2018, 11:53:38 am
That’s in low flow, if I use max flow I can drop the cabin a couple hundred feet.

Max flow is not a problem on my plane since I have a enviro system.

Next 150hr I will get the leak rate checked and see if there is some simple leaks we can fix.

When low flow on an enviro system can handles the pressurization, It indidcates a nice tight cabin.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 16, 2018, 12:39:52 pm
Low air flow is an issue for the Enviro systems. With the Sundstrand, it's never an issue-- I can turn one bleed off, and the cabin never bumps. So leakdown might be an issue for you.

In my case, I was told that the pressurization controllers have a certain tolerance, and some of them will only go to 5.0, some will go to 5.2. If I wanted to spend a bunch of money changing controllers until I found one that went to 5.2, I suppose I could do that, but 5.0 is good enough for me. At FL280, I have about a 10,500 - 11,000 foot cabin, and that doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on March 16, 2018, 07:37:37 pm
Don - It’s outflow valves more than controllers in my experience.  Honeywell doesn’t seem to like to deliver valves that do what they should.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 18, 2018, 01:11:00 pm
I think that's right-- it's the outflow valves. I'm sure they have a manufacturing tolerance, and mine are probably just at one end of that tolerance.

I remember picking up a new Citation Sovereign at the factory, and when you put the speed brakes out, it rolled to the right. The Cessna test pilot said that it was within tolerance, or something like that... I asked "Do they all do that?" He replied "Well, no, not all of them."

When we landed, we talked to the production guys, and they said they just pulled the speed brake actuators out of the box and put them on the airplane. The actuators were built with a certain tolerance for how fast they worked, and if one was at one end of the range and the other one was at the other end, there was a pretty substantial difference. So they agreed to go back to parts and pull a bunch of different ones and find two that were about the same. Roll problem solved.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on March 30, 2018, 09:21:19 am
I have always checked out photos of the twin turbo commanders online.  Seems the 980 model has x2 paint schemes that are pretty unique (granted there is a flying dolphin on a 690 I believe!).
SPACE AND A MOUSE

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 30, 2018, 07:23:06 pm
The last one lives in Germany and is owned by an older gentleman. I had a guy contact me a few years ago in Germany interested in a Turbo Commander. I managed to connect the owner of the space one with this younger buyer and they went for a ride. He liked it, but wanted something newer in the end. But funny how the Commander world is kind of all within reach.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 30, 2018, 08:16:20 pm
Didn't the guy who got a ride in the German spacey 980 post about it here somewhere?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 30, 2018, 09:07:41 pm
Yeah, he did. Don't think he's logged in since.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 30, 2018, 11:58:07 pm
The yellow mouse one is Truly Nolen, which is a pest control company in California and Arizona (and maybe other places?).

They usually have some sort of old car out front of their stores with similar paint, and I think their trucks are also painted that way.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on June 27, 2018, 09:47:43 am
Nice little run-
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N515AM

BTW Steve/Don/Bruce- no luck yet on the salute at PHL...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on June 27, 2018, 01:54:17 pm
Nice, almost a straight line, even with some weather,
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on June 27, 2018, 02:24:59 pm
What a great airplane!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on July 12, 2018, 12:51:57 pm
Afternoon everyone.  Know it was mentioned in a previous post, but figured I would ask (maybe Bruce knows).
Im in the market to buy an original model of the 980 that the manufacturer gave to owners at purchase.  I know Don had one sitting in his office for many years.  I've looked online, and the one I previously purchased is nowhere near the quality or detail of the original we got.
I know its a long shot, but nowhere else to look.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 12, 2018, 01:00:05 pm
I really don't know... there are probably some sitting around in people's offices-- the irony is that it's worth a lot to you, and someone who has one might be putting it in a box for Goodwill or something!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on July 12, 2018, 04:09:50 pm
So true Don- would actually pay pretty high price.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 12, 2018, 04:14:51 pm
I checked with the one person who I thought might have one, but it disappeared long ago.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on July 12, 2018, 11:26:40 pm
Here is a flight I just did, KCMA to KSUS. Camarillo California to St. Louis Missouri.

Flight aware shows 1632 miles in 5.3hrs.  I thought it was more like 1500nm either way it was 5.3 and I landed with 800lbs of fuel.  That is an easy 1.5 hrs of fuel down low.  The bitch of it was I had a headwind on a eastbound flight, everaged about 15kts of head wind.

Show me a little jet that can do that!  Love the 980!

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N9812S

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on July 12, 2018, 11:40:44 pm
Amazing machines!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 13, 2018, 12:27:36 am
They really are fantastic.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on July 13, 2018, 10:41:10 am
Awesome run Steve!
We gotta update your flightaware pic!


PS thanks for checking Don.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on July 13, 2018, 05:58:56 pm
I never noticed the pic on flight aware.  It does need some updating.

Here is a instrument pic of the return flight St. Louis to California.

It was ISA +17 at FL280  so my TAS was low just 290kts but I was heavy with fuel and it slowly got up into the mid 290s as I lightened up.

The advantage of the high ISA was my FF was low just 400lbs/hr or roughly 60gph. Made it in the same time 5.3 and had 800lbs on the ground.

What other TP except maybe a Conquest can do that, and the conquest has the SIDS inspections and has a reputation of being a little lightly built.

The MU-2 with its small wing struggles in ISA + temps.  The long body MU-2 would be stuck at F180 burning 85gph and the short one would be slowed by a high AOA causing lots of drag if it went to FL280.. all things being equal.   The Commander even in these condition flies incredible flat. 

I was able to straight to FL280 even being heavy and hot.

I don’t know why my photos come out weird but you can move the picture around with your finger.  It looks like I you are viewing through a telescope, really magnified.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 13, 2018, 06:04:48 pm
I didn't know you could make the G600 display temperature in ISA+ format! I will have to try to make mine do that.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on July 13, 2018, 10:28:11 pm
Don I am not sure how to,get the g600 to display variations in ISA , but I like it.  I have SAT on my 650.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 13, 2018, 10:31:19 pm
This is my present setup...

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on July 14, 2018, 02:12:01 am
That’s nice you have the angled G600 I really like that.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on July 14, 2018, 07:12:33 pm
Damnit. I should have patented the angle mount!  Often imitated,
Rarely duplicated  ;D
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 14, 2018, 09:15:33 pm
Damnit. I should have patented the angle mount!  Often imitated,
Rarely duplicated  ;D

I admit I stole that from you. I looked at some pictures and asked if they can angle it like that. It makes a big difference because you can mount the G600 higher in the panel, which just makes everything easier.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on July 16, 2018, 08:15:27 am
Steve- you could be my last hope.  Please check private messages when you have a moment.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on July 16, 2018, 12:35:11 pm
PM sent.  I have never checked PMs on this site.  Sorry for that delay.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 16, 2018, 07:27:23 pm
I figured out how to make it display the temperature in ISA. That's pretty nice. I was seeing ISA+16 at FL280 this morning over Colorado, and my fuel flows were actually down in that area as well.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on July 16, 2018, 09:48:21 pm
Damnit. I should have patented the angle mount!  Often imitated,
Rarely duplicated  ;D

I admit I stole that from you. I looked at some pictures and asked if they can angle it like that. It makes a big difference because you can mount the G600 higher in the panel, which just makes everything easier.

Don - You were pre-approved for a demo copy of the CAD drawing, but I didn’t know where to send it  ;)
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on July 25, 2018, 02:12:39 pm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ROCKWELL-JETPROP-COMMANDER-980-BUSINESS-AIRCRAFT-ORIGINAL-PRESS-PHOTOGRAPH-1980/292625210804?hash=item4421d25db4%3Ag%3ABXcAAOSwOA1aOqmw&_sacat=0&_nkw=jetprop+commander&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313

Classic 980 look.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 25, 2018, 02:47:53 pm
I'm thinking pretty seriously when I repaint mine, to go with the factory scheme. In blue. I need to find out if Norm or Bruce have any of the old factory color books.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on July 26, 2018, 07:43:02 am
Do it Don!  So we aren't the only 980 still in the old stripes up the tail!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Jfelipe.rojasr on July 27, 2018, 11:03:50 am
I'm thinking pretty seriously when I repaint mine, to go with the factory scheme. In blue. I need to find out if Norm or Bruce have any of the old factory color books.

Don,

Maybe you find this useful, it’s from our 690A logbook when released from factory in 1973.

Regards
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 27, 2018, 03:24:35 pm
Thank you, that's interesting. My logbooks do not show anything about the initial colors on my airplane, but that may be because the first US logbooks are basically empty (just the production test flight signoff) and then they went to the German logs, and no one bothered to put that in those books. Barry Collman did inform me that my airplane was originally "Bavarian Creme," but there is no chance I'm going back to those colors!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on September 07, 2018, 03:54:00 pm
Truly NOLEN NOOOOO!!!!  980 for sale.
Bruce, wonder if someone will buy without a new paint job?

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27837753/1980-commander-980
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on September 07, 2018, 11:54:14 pm
That is too bad. Looks like a great airplane, too-- I will be interested to see how it does-- it's very similar to mine in terms of history, equipment, and times.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on September 08, 2018, 12:28:27 am
High-ish time engines. Sounds like the perfect plane for a guy I know - myself!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on September 08, 2018, 12:34:03 am
Needs paint and interior, though... but those are much simpler than the stuff you've been doing, Adam!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on September 08, 2018, 12:31:46 pm
What’s up with the number 4 windows on this 980?  You can see them in the interior photos.  It looks like they are installed but from the outside they are covered over and painted?

Weird.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on September 08, 2018, 12:33:52 pm
Steve, thank you for bringing that up-- I was curious about that too!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on September 08, 2018, 12:35:12 pm
High-ish time engines. Sounds like the perfect plane for a guy I know - myself!

It does say he is open to trades!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on September 08, 2018, 02:52:19 pm
Didn't even notice the windows, good catch Steve...
Interested in what she goes for, hope we can find out.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on September 13, 2018, 01:27:23 am
Is that the original interior in the Truly Nolen airplane? It kind of looks like it...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on October 19, 2018, 11:07:06 pm
Does anyone know how much they are asking for the Truly Nolen airplane? Just curious what the market range is, with Bruce's new 980 at the top end and this one lower down...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: EricDapp on October 20, 2018, 01:12:18 am
They told me $845,000.   They have had a few low offers and the owner countered at $685,000.  Ad a pair of overhauls, paint and interior and you have the most expensive 980 out there.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on October 20, 2018, 10:49:23 am
Yeah, with hose engine times it needs to be a sub-$600K plane.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on October 20, 2018, 11:35:41 am
I'm not so sure about that. A pair of engine overhauls will be $500k. It already has excellent avionics, and a paint job isn't that much (honestly, they should have painted it before trying to sell it, or included a paint job with the sale). At $600k plus overhauls, you are where Bruce is with his 980-- and this one probably has lower total time.

But $800k is probably too much, that I would agree with.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on November 03, 2018, 02:51:38 pm
Random question- why in this pic of a 980, why is the static dischargers "limp"?
Or I guess the question is are they replaced when worn down?  Ours are straight as an arrow...

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: SKYFLYER on November 03, 2018, 06:15:06 pm
Just a guess but 110+ degrees in the Mexican desert and gravity.  Also it appears that they are almost twice as long as the current versions.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on December 03, 2018, 08:23:06 pm
Does anyone still have the coffee maker, and I think ice bucket (was behind co-pilot seat)?
Was that standard equipment on purchase, ours was removed while I was pretty young.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on December 03, 2018, 08:30:26 pm
Standard equipment was two coffee thermoses behind the pilot seat, with an ice chest below them. Behind the copilot seat was a drawer module, with a lift-up compartment with mirror at the top, a drawer for liquor decanters, and another ice drawer, for cold drinks.

On the door was a tiny trash bin.

My airplane still has the right hand module, but the left side one was long ago converted to shelving for manuals and books. I haven't seen a door-mounted trash bin in decades.

The official description reads as follows:

-- Refreshment Console, Left Side with Two (2) One Quart Hot Beverage Dispensers, Cup Dispenser, and Ice Chest

-- Storage/Refreshment Console, Right Side With Decorative Bulkhead, Vanity Storage and Ashtray in Top Compartment. Two Bottom Compartments in Right Console Include (1) Hospitality Center (3 Liquor Decanters) (2) Ice/Waste Drawer with Cover (3) Storage Drawer (1 or 2).

-- Waste Container-- Inside Cabin Door.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on December 03, 2018, 09:57:34 pm
Interesting stuff Don, thanks
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on January 04, 2019, 05:01:58 pm
Steve/Don- look at this hot dog!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cuW8Yt1fhM
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on January 04, 2019, 11:09:57 pm
95069... she's seen quite a bit of the world, based on the registration history. Not too impressed with that takeoff, though.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: SKYFLYER on January 05, 2019, 09:01:39 am
Standard equipment was two coffee thermoses behind the pilot seat, with an ice chest below them. Behind the copilot seat was a drawer module, with a lift-up compartment with mirror at the top, a drawer for liquor decanters, and another ice drawer, for cold drinks.

On the door was a tiny trash bin.

My airplane still has the right hand module, but the left side one was long ago converted to shelving for manuals and books. I haven't seen a door-mounted trash bin in decades.

The official description reads as follows:

-- Refreshment Console, Left Side with Two (2) One Quart Hot Beverage Dispensers, Cup Dispenser, and Ice Chest

-- Storage/Refreshment Console, Right Side With Decorative Bulkhead, Vanity Storage and Ashtray in Top Compartment. Two Bottom Compartments in Right Console Include (1) Hospitality Center (3 Liquor Decanters) (2) Ice/Waste Drawer with Cover (3) Storage Drawer (1 or 2).

-- Waste Container-- Inside Cabin Door.

I still have the "waste container" however it has not been on the door for a very long time
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on January 05, 2019, 03:02:42 pm
Maybe a little bit of a Bob Hoover wanna be on that takeoff!

Still you got have fun every now and then.  Only downside is if one of the engines hicccups.

The clouds really helped make it look good.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on January 23, 2019, 11:22:18 am
Bruce- seeing x2 980's for sale on controller... Any idea what the asking price is for these?
Funny they are half the TT we have.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on January 28, 2019, 12:36:13 am
It's the same two, Truly Nolen and Bruce's, I believe. I think asking prices are up the thread a bit, although given the amount of time the Truly Nolen airplane has been on the market, maybe they're amenable to an offer?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on January 28, 2019, 12:37:59 am
Sorry, the prices are in another thread. I think Bruce is asking $1.1 million, and Truly Nolen is $695k. I could be wrong, or those prices may have changed since the last thread.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 28, 2019, 07:10:41 am
I'm always surprised at how much cosmetics and looks can affect the price. The Nolen plane has funny paint job and outdated panel/interior, but at the same time so does many similar planes that go for $200K more. I guess the takeaway is that don't spray your plane in a funny color or scheme, because you'll lose a lot of $ when it comes to selling.. ;)
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: SKYFLYER on January 28, 2019, 07:34:11 am
As always "value" is in the eye of the beholder 8)
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on January 28, 2019, 10:47:46 am
Yes, sorry Don- was curious if there was a change in price since they have been on the market for a bit.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on January 28, 2019, 12:25:01 pm
I would strongly disagree that the Truly Nolen airplane has an "outdated" panel. It has a G600 and dual GTN 750s!

I would argue that Bruce's airplane, with the Meggitt, is the one which is outdated.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 28, 2019, 07:22:32 pm
I probably mixed it up with another ad, didn't actually look this time.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JimC on January 29, 2019, 01:11:06 pm
Steve/Don- look at this hot dog!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cuW8Yt1fhM
"Segure minha cerveja e assista isso"
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: SKYFLYER on January 29, 2019, 03:46:23 pm
Clearly it must have been a "Bohemia" 8)
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on February 07, 2019, 05:53:47 pm
Funny- it appears the 695/980 was the choice to be stolen as per this site 3 of them! 
Wonder how you make that call to your insurance agent!

https://sites.google.com/site/aerocommanderproductionlist/
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 07, 2019, 06:02:49 pm
They were favorites of El Chapo and other drug runners-- carry a big load, fly in and out of short runways, go fast, long range... pretty much the perfect airplane for that mission!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on February 14, 2019, 07:09:11 pm
A question for Don/Steve/Bruce- why on the 980, N25TN is the window blocked or painted over rear of the door (pilot side).
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 14, 2019, 08:34:19 pm
I don't know the answer to that. Maybe Bruce does? I assume it was done at some point after the airplane left the factory?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on February 14, 2019, 09:51:58 pm
I remember it was blocked by the government for some particular reason I can’t recall.  The plane has history of aerial survey and, like many others, gov special ops of unknown nature.

I suspect that it’s far cheaper to keep as aluminum that replace with a proper transparency if you know what I mean.

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 15, 2019, 07:35:00 pm
Sometimes seems like mine and JMAs are the only ones without government/photo/south american history!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on February 15, 2019, 07:49:33 pm
Sometimes seems like mine and JMAs are the only ones without government/photo/south american history!

There’s still time Don!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 15, 2019, 07:55:55 pm
Sometimes seems like mine and JMAs are the only ones without government/photo/south american history!

There’s still time Don!

I know-- that's probably where my airplane will end up, someday, after I send it along to the next owner. Or doing fire fighting, more likely. Probably not going to have the indignity of a camera port, though, at this point!

Better that than moldering in a hangar or on a some deserted ramp somewhere...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on February 15, 2019, 11:57:55 pm
When I dropped mine at AeroAir I got a tour of the facility w. Richard Urban. They only had a single 690B left - said all the charters, medical transports and firewatches had moved on to PC12's. I suppose it's inevitable. The reality is they're 40-50 years old by now. Even the last one made is edging closer to 40.

I think the future for the fleet long term are private owners. I think their time as workhorse transport and charter planes is probably coming to and end. PC12's and King Air's have taken that hill. And maybe that's for the better they get cared for by owner pilots in the long run?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on February 16, 2019, 11:57:18 am
I just dropped my 980 off at Naples jet center.  My mother lives in the area so it gives me the chance to visit.  It is a way to kill two birds with one stone.

In reality I should take it to another shop, just to have a fresh set of eyes on it.

Naples jet center had a good amount of Commanders in the hangar and most looked to be private.  I think we will start seeing more pampered Commanders out on the ramps.

I did see firefighter Commanders last summer in Canada when I was there.  It is hard to beat the visibility the Commander offers.  No way the PC12 or king air gives you the same visibility.  It probably comes down to keeping them in the air.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 16, 2019, 01:20:59 pm
As far as I know, there are just 3 Turbo Commanders in the Portland area now, down from many even a few years ago. I have my 980, Aero Air has a 690 that they use mostly to support their fire operations, and a lady in Scappose has a 690 that she has owned for many, many years.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on February 18, 2019, 01:47:40 pm
Her Don?
https://twincommander.com/team_member/maria-plunket/
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 19, 2019, 12:48:50 am
Maria is out of the Seattle area. I haven't seen her in a few years, but I see the airplane around so I assume she is still flying it. We did some flying in a Lear 25 years ago...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on February 20, 2019, 10:51:11 am
That's right, got my west coast mixed up!

On another note, thats some good tailwind:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/jet-stream-helps-flight-reach-801-mph-reports/ar-BBTPTMN?li=BBnbfcL
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 20, 2019, 12:14:11 pm
My concern about the really big winds is that they are great when they are pushing you along, generally not so good when climbing in or out of them or flying through them laterally-- particularly where they make a big bend. As a friend of mine used to say, "stay away from the elbow in the jet stream!"

When I came home from California the other day, just for fun I ran a flight plan for an Eclipse on the same route. I had the same time, because the Eclipse had to go up high to keep the fuel burns down, and up high the headwinds (really just a crosswind, but at 170 knots it doesn't take much crosswind component to be a big headwind) really hurt it.

And, to add insult to injury, it didn't look like the Eclipse could make the trip nonstop...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on February 20, 2019, 02:49:11 pm
Valid point Don.
Quick question, somekind of Eagle Creek event?  Seems like a few commanders in the pic, circa 2000, new orleans.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/97531768@N05/18648659972/in/photolist-upVfUd-u3s1VD-tjZB1Y-uhcgUV-tjZzmq-uh22ft-tec431-tRjMx2-tC5Jy2-tBLQPb-sF4PXu-tkuzZY-tkuz2W-sGAYoq-sATVbs-rAue75-sduLXX-rCVPKB-qXw4Cy-qXqq7m-rv2S9Z-rPmBwp-rPgzPc-rPgzAM-qR6Ace-rvjKfC-rtirM4-qM1EFE-rEDiE3-qFDRWY-rAStsr-qrbxxv-riPjCg-rgC5Dd-r2nLvo-riV97P-rabXtN-raJidG-qPVgxx-qLHRVR-q4hXcL-qDfojx-qnaJYz-q3i32q-pQauyd-oPJc5Y-psyzKN-p7nKSr-oD2dTX-oBgb8L
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 20, 2019, 03:52:27 pm
I'm thinking NBAA.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on September 08, 2019, 12:42:32 pm
I see the Truly Nolen 980 back on controller... they removed the mouse ears and logo-- if you're going to do that, why not just repaint the whole thing? I think it would be much easier to sell with a new paint job.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on September 08, 2019, 06:34:52 pm
How much are they asking?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on September 08, 2019, 10:32:39 pm
The ad I saw didn't list a price.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on November 05, 2019, 01:27:23 pm
First time in a LONG time I've seen x3 980's for sale at once.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/category/8/turboprop-aircraft/manufacturer/commander/model/980

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on November 05, 2019, 04:23:04 pm
How does N126M have a 7000 hour TBO? Is that something I could get when I overhaul my engines?

I thought that was just available for the MSP engines?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on November 06, 2019, 02:10:29 pm
Incidentally, one of those three (my old Japanese friend) is marked as "sold."

The other one is Truly Nolan, which will probably need a paint job to sell...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 06, 2019, 06:43:56 pm
I want Truly Nolan. Hoping it will still be here when I get out of my dark tunnel.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on November 06, 2019, 07:44:33 pm
I think that could be a great airplane for you, actually. Would you keep the paint as-is?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 11, 2019, 05:53:46 pm
I think that could be a great airplane for you, actually. Would you keep the paint as-is?

I would have no choice in the beginning. But I would open up that blocked window. Looks silly without it.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: SKYFLYER on November 12, 2019, 06:48:07 am
I looked at that and could not quite understand why anyone would do that unless it was a camera ship at some point.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on November 12, 2019, 08:05:30 am
I looked at that and could not quite understand why anyone would do that unless it was a camera ship at some point.

Why yes, I believe it was.  Or at least some secret government operational tool.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on November 12, 2019, 12:53:12 pm
I wonder if there is some reason the window is blocked? In other words, maybe it's not so easy to unblock it?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on November 17, 2019, 01:58:23 am
Looks like ol' Truly sold?

https://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N25TN

Or maybe just to someone who is going to do a repaint and flip?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on November 17, 2019, 02:24:43 am
Good deal. Hope it did.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on December 12, 2019, 03:06:36 pm
Bruce, any idea what the asking price is on N126M? odd I thought this was the owner:
https://twincommander.com/team_member/david-tennenbaum/
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on December 12, 2019, 05:36:26 pm
I don't think that's him.

N126M is a great airplane, though! I really need to find out what the deal is with the 7000 hour TBO.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on December 13, 2019, 01:30:46 pm
Once again you are right Don- I should read more carefully.  N218MS vs. N126M
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on March 31, 2020, 09:58:10 am
Once again Don you called it.
Truly Nolen repainted and for sale again:

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/192260777/1980-commander-980

Don't like that version of 980 on wingtip...copying the Japan 980 tail paint scheme.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on March 31, 2020, 10:28:56 am
Looks better, but why put 980 all over fin and tips? Don't get that. Also noticed they didn't reinstate the windows. Strange, I'd though it just be a plug you could remove and replace with the correct window. This suggest they re-did metalwork and eliminated the structure when they removed that window. Very strange - why?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 31, 2020, 12:48:17 pm
The winglets look awful. I can't imagine why they did it that way. I would repaint those right away. Something on the winglets is nice (and frankly, I like having "980" on mine) but that is crazy. The giant "980" on the tail is not great either.

I will be curious how much it sells for in this climate. Or even what the asking price is.

What did it sell for last time?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: SKYFLYER on April 02, 2020, 01:55:27 pm
"Why yes, I believe it was.  Or at least some secret government operational tool."

Bruce was correct...

I spoke with a friend and he remembered when it was in the service of the FBI and they had altered the window structure to allow for "restraints" used during prisoner transport.

So I guess putting the windows back would be considerable work.

As to the "980" on there I agree that they are way too big and do not go with the flow of the paint
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on April 02, 2020, 02:53:55 pm
Sorry I said Japan, but its Brazil.... same exact tail.

Also, would pay good money to see a commander with 'restraints' in it.  Think anyone has a pic somewhere!?!


https://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled/Rockwell-695-Jetprop-980/5719723?qsp=eJx1jbEOwjAMRP/Fc4YUKhDZ6MIIAz9gOQYilTayPVBV/XfSVGJjO713upuBxsH4Y/cpMwRQRqEXOMgo%2BFYIM2ASEnxYh5poqzX%2B5Bv3MxceWP44CO2u9UcHOop1U7mIaHwm4mwcYeNXiSyrYqX6/VyHSmC51Qz7Q%2BExae6xbrBh6mFZvkQvPvE%3D
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on April 04, 2020, 08:30:43 pm
Interesting to look at the interior pictures. At least on the inside, the window frames appear to still be there.

I used to fly lots of federal prisoners in Learjets, back in the day. We never had any special restraints, and half the time I would look back there and the only one awake would be the prisoner!

"Why yes, I believe it was.  Or at least some secret government operational tool."

Bruce was correct...

I spoke with a friend and he remembered when it was in the service of the FBI and they had altered the window structure to allow for "restraints" used during prisoner transport.

So I guess putting the windows back would be considerable work.

As to the "980" on there I agree that they are way too big and do not go with the flow of the paint
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on April 07, 2020, 10:43:39 am
Is it odd Don I'm jealous those prisoners got a ride in a learjet!?!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on April 07, 2020, 11:53:11 am
If you met them, you wouldn't be. Most of them had been in the prison system for a long, long time and were being moved so that they would die somewhere closer to their families. Or so they could get some sort of treatment. Generally, the ones we flew didn't need a stretcher (although we could do that if necessary), but they were in pretty bad shape.

The medical people in the federal prisons are US Public Health Service officers. I had a long discussion with one of them about the whole thing (we had a 4 hour leg, so plenty of time to talk!). They don't like to fly federal prisoners on the airlines, and so the only other option is to drive them across the country in a van, with several guards and a USPHS doctor, all getting overtime, per diem, etc for a week or so. The Learjet starts to look like a pretty good deal.

Is it odd Don I'm jealous those prisoners got a ride in a learjet!?!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on April 08, 2020, 09:09:52 am
Thanks Don- found that story very interesting, thanks.
I guess a flight in a learjet, esp. an early model is a dream of mine.  A LJ23/LJ24- don't think its much of an option anymore, not sure if there is even a 23 airworthy out there.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on April 10, 2020, 01:30:40 am
I've flown the 24, 25, 31, 35, and 55. The only model I haven't flown is the 23. I have sat in the cockpit of a 23, and honestly I don't know that I could fly it-- I'm a big guy, and I had a hard time getting full travel on the controls.

The late model 24 I flew fit okay (it could only go about 2.5 hours anyway), and the others were no problem. Most of my time is in the 35, and I really like that airplane. The systems are a little funky, but the airplanes are sweet.

The 24 is a lot of fun-- the climb is incredible-- but the 35 is such a nice all-around package. I considered buying a 24 a few years back-- there are still some flying-- but the hassle of finding a second pilot and the fuel burn was just too much for me, no matter how I ran the numbers.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on April 28, 2020, 10:41:34 am
Have a question- other than the fact our planes are 40 years old. 
What would the benefits be of buying something like a PC-12 @ 2-2.5 million vs a jetprop commander completely refurbished for 1.5?
More room? 

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on April 28, 2020, 01:32:30 pm
Personally, I think a 1000 beats a PC-12 every which way. Faster, burns the same or less fuel, two engine redundancy, costs the same or less to operate. Yes, slightly less room and not as nice a lav. So if you need to carry 8 people around all the time, the PC-12 is going to be better. Or if you need that giant cargo door and carry lots and lots of stuff. But for most usage, 1000 all day, every day.

Merlin IIIC is an even better choice if you need to carry 8 people all the time. I used to fly a Merlin IIIB and our normal passenger load was 7-9 (with two pilots). The passengers loved it-- quiet, outstanding environmental system (so plenty of cool air), fast, just great. But nowhere near as nice to fly as the Commander, and doesn't perform nearly as well.

The single engine PT6 thing is because Pratt will sell the OEMs the engines very cheaply, but because the engines are so expensive to operate, you can only justify having one. Fortunately, they never fail (except for the PC-12 last week, and many others...).
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on April 28, 2020, 02:07:31 pm
I will add that the 900 with a cargo door Bruce has listed is probably the best of all worlds.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on April 29, 2020, 12:00:07 am
Don, I had to count the seat belts twice  ;)  The flip down jump seat behind the pilot is even rarer than the cargo door- don’t think I’ve ever seen another.

It’s a nice plane. Given jet fuel prices, it’s time to fly.  Let’s see some trip reports!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JimC on April 29, 2020, 09:43:25 am
  The flip down jump seat behind the pilot is even rarer than the cargo door- don’t think I’ve ever seen another.

I've never even *heard* of it. DO you have some pictures?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on April 29, 2020, 10:50:00 am
I did a little trip on Saturday. Hey, at $1.84/gallon at home base, why not?

Was that flip-down jump seat a factory thing, or a mod? I've seen a little jump seat that goes in front of the door, but it fits into the seat tracks. Nothing like this.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on May 02, 2020, 02:41:00 pm
Thanks Don- you always provide informative answers.
I would think the redundancy with two engines would be a huge selling point. 
Just saw a PC12 next to our 980 and it made me wonder what would make someone spend another 1.5 million for a plane that doesn't have that much of clear advantage in my mind.

I gotta see a pic of that jump seat, never even heard of that...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on May 02, 2020, 10:49:57 pm
I know of two PC-12s which have had engine failures in the last six months... just saying.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 03, 2020, 08:34:30 am
Don't know how they fly over mountains at night in a PC12. I'd be a nervous wreck.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Big Pistons Forever on May 03, 2020, 02:02:46 pm
Reminds of a line from an airline friend who was asked how he liked the 747

His reply, “it will do until they come up with a 5 engine jet”
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on May 14, 2020, 12:05:54 am
I'm supposed to talk to a guy in a day or so who wants a 414... I'm going to have a hard time not telling him to get a 690. Or at least a Meridian, if the 690 is too old. I just don't see the advantage of the turbocharged piston any more, except possibly for the Aerostar.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on May 27, 2020, 10:45:40 am
Don- how did your 690 pitch go?

Another oddball question: Awhile back I asked about the 'dorsal fin' not being on the 980, but on the 690's and 1000's.
I realized if you look closely at the N25TN, its not so much a 'dorsal fin' but a small curvature that we do not have on our 980?  Any ideas?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on May 27, 2020, 01:35:52 pm
He's getting the 414. I actually ended up suggesting a Baron, or something simpler, but people will do what they want to do. After a year or so with the 414, he'll want a Commander. The first time he is stuck in the ice at FL200 over the Cascades... (been there!).
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on June 02, 2020, 10:13:58 am
They all eventually come around to see how great the Commander is!
Any thoughts Don on the Tail question?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on June 02, 2020, 11:52:35 am
Twin Commander had an article about that a while back, because the longer dorsal from the 840 (and 690?) was having corrosion issues underneath it.

You are right about N25TN, and I don't know the answer. I had to replace a piece of that curvature on my airplane, and it's just royalite plastic, surprisingly. Mine cracked.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on June 02, 2020, 03:27:28 pm
Thanks as always Don...
So I understand a bit better- was there x2 type of 'jump seats' you could install as factory options Bruce?
One behind pilot seat as seen on N3NT, and another that would be on the tracks by the doorway as Don mentions in an earlier post?


Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on June 02, 2020, 04:25:28 pm
This dorsal thing is kind of bugging me. The one on N25TN looks sort of like the ones on the 900. I know there were several dorsal fin mods as well-- maybe this is one of those?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on June 03, 2020, 01:16:12 pm
There are about 10 styles of dorsals and 3 tailcones. Ok, maybe not 10, but there’s the old long, the new long, the 3 pc, the short, and the medium and probably some other one.  Made of various plastics, carbon fiber, and fiberglas. None of them make any difference other than appearance as far as I know. I believe it was all marketing driven and I don’t recall the year model changes exactly but that’s probably determinable looking at the brochures and old pics, etc..  Later planes had mostly short ones but there’s the little swoopy job noted above.  It’s important that they drain lest they cause corrosion, particularly with the long 690 style fairings.

I’ve seen all of the planes with lightweight jump seats.  I think the factory just threw them in the baggage if you bought one, very little documentation on those. They are the same style seats as offered in some “high density” configurations. Some planes have seat tracks in front of the door, some don’t, some have enough oxygen masks for the extra pax, some don’t.  Our 900 N3NT is configured with 11 belts out of the factory which is more than I’ve seen on any plane other than the Commuter seating config.   :)
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on June 12, 2020, 07:52:49 pm

I’ve seen all of the planes with lightweight jump seats.  I think the factory just threw them in the baggage if you bought one, very little documentation on those. They are the same style seats as offered in some “high density” configurations. Some planes have seat tracks in front of the door, some don’t, some have enough oxygen masks for the extra pax, some don’t.  Our 900 N3NT is configured with 11 belts out of the factory which is more than I’ve seen on any plane other than the Commuter seating config.   :)

My 980 factory price list shows "Lightweight Auxiliary Seat (includes Light and Oxygen Unit above Cabin Door)" as a $4,000 option. Adds 15 pounds, as well.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 23, 2021, 01:04:30 pm
I was talking with Jim at Eagle Creek yesterday, and he mentioned that there are only 12 980s in the US at the moment. And at least one of those, he was pretty sure, was not actually operational.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on February 24, 2021, 12:16:27 am
There are 11 including one that’s tied up in repair.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 24, 2021, 11:58:01 am
Does that include the one that came back from Indonesia?

There are 11 including one that’s tied up in repair.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on February 25, 2021, 01:35:32 am
Afirm. Can’t believe that one made it but even after spending $10’s of thousands and calling it a day, I’m happy it made it.  Looking for the next one to save. Who’s up for a trip to Iran?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on February 25, 2021, 11:35:03 am
Iran is mostly 690s and 500s, isn't it? Did any Jetprops make it over there before the revolution?

A thread on Iranian Commanders would be interesting... lots of history there.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 06, 2021, 12:26:18 pm
Bruce, do you know how many 980s are actually operational world-wide?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on March 11, 2021, 11:45:00 am
11 in US????  Who am I missing?
Granted, these are from me googling tail number and seeing what pics come in, not flight worthiness by any stretch
Orange outside of US and Blue US.


Type-C/n  Model   Year  Regs. . . . . . .
695-95000 Jetprop 980         N81575 - N980RC - N13BJ - N303E - XC-AA67 - XC-UJW
695-95001 Jetprop 980         N980JP - N980AA - N980AN - N980AA - status? possibly exported to Colombia;
695-95002 Jetprop 980 1980 N980R - N8LB - N8LN - N980BH - N905BL -  N980BH
695-95003 Jetprop 980 1980 N9756S - N501NB - N9756S - status? possibly exported to Colombia;
695-95004 Jetprop 980         N9757S - N555GG - N100TK -  N100TT - CP-2078 - FAB-030 - Fuerza Aerea Boliviana
695-95005 Jetprop 980         N9758S - ZS-KVB - [w/o 20Jun84 Dingle Farm, nr Sishen, Cape Province, South Africa; canx 30Sep93]
695-95006 Jetprop 980         N9759S - YV-366CP - N4468F - N171CP - N171CT - N980HB - current - NOT CORRECT REGISTRATION ANY LONGER
695-95007 Jetprop 980         N9760S - N123RC - YV-581CP - ARV-0211 (Venezuelan Navy) -  ARBV-0211  - Venezualan Navy
695-95008 Jetprop 980         N9761S - N515AM
695-95009 Jetprop 980         N9762S - N333GC - 3D-ABH - ZS-KZW - N214GA - ZS-KZW - YV-2566P - YV224T
695-95010 Jetprop 980 1980 N9763S - D-IHEL - N8534Z - N980BC - PJ-BRW - HK-3412X - HK-3412 - HK-3412W - YVO154
695-95011 Jetprop 980         N9764S - N980EC
695-95012 Jetprop 980         N9765S - N980SA - YV-129P - N980SA
695-95013 Jetprop 980 1980 N9766S - N200M - N500TH - N519HB  - N25TN -
695-95014 Jetprop 980         N9767S - N321MD - N9767S - [dbr 02Aug81 Peoria-Greater Peoria Regional, IL, USA]
695-95015 Jetprop 980         N9768S - N655PC - N695WR - PR-DRY[/color][/color]
695-95016 Jetprop 980         N9769S - N245KK - N54GP - N600TC - YV-83CP - N70505 - HK-3474X - HK-3474
695-95017 Jetprop 980         N9770S - YV-56CP - YV2090
695-95018 Jetprop 980 1980 N9771S - N121LA - N123LA - XC-PFB - CRASH WRITTEN OFF 2012
695-95019 Jetprop 980         N9772S - N980JC - PK-ODR - A-2022 - Indonesian Army
695-95020 Jetprop 980         N9773S - N900LC - N980H - YV-119CP - XC-HFX - XC-AA38 - w/o 19-OCT-1992
695-95021 Jetprop 980         N9774S - ZP-PTU - ZP-TTU - canx 20May86 as exported to USA; not actually imported - status?
695-95022 Jetprop 980         N9775S - N20HG - HK-3484X - HK-3484 - HK-3484P
695-95023 Jetprop 980         N9776S - D-IMKO - N888SF - N700PC - N708PC
695-95024 Jetprop 980 1980 N9778S - N66FP - N36JT current
695-95025 Jetprop 980         N9779S - N54UM - "HK-3230P" - N136AR
695-95026 Jetprop 980         N9757S - N9780S - N999FE - N90BL - N903L - canx 09May89 as exported to Ecuador
695-95027 Jetprop 980         N83SA - N9792S - N7101L
695-95028 Jetprop 980         N9781S - N980AC - N980CF - YV-980CP
695-95029 Jetprop 980         N9782S - N700MM - N600MM - stolen 16Dec87 Vero Beach, FL, USA; never recovered
695-95030 Jetprop 980         N9783S - N980AB - N980MD   
695-95031 Jetprop 980         N9784S - HP-1132P - N980EA [status? possibly exported to Colombia]
695-95032 Jetprop 980 1980 N9785S - N265EX
695-95033 Jetprop 980         N87SA - N8774P -  N126M
695-95034 Jetprop 980         N9786S - N980WM - N980GM - YV1532
695-95035 Jetprop 980         N9787S - N200JN - [canx 31Oct88 as exported to Paraquay]
695-95036 Jetprop 980         N9788S - D-IBOS - D-IOEB - N5356M
695-95037 Jetprop 980         N9789S - w/o 12-MAY-1982 Carlsbad-Cavern City Air Terminal, NM, USA
695-95038 Jetprop 980         N91SA - canx 01Jul88 as exported to Brazil
695-95039 Jetprop 980         N9790S - D-IHSI
695-95040 Jetprop 980         N980AD - N980E - XC-HHI - XB-AOC - MT-219 (Mexican Navy) - AMP-  Armada de Mexico
695-95041 Jetprop 980 1981 N9793S - N400DK - N400DW - N3U - N218MS
695-95042 Jetprop 980         N9794S - XA-LEK - XB-DTO - XB-DXX
695-95043 Jetprop 980         N9795S - N9NR - N9WZ - N74CD - N9963S - HK-3461X - HK-3461 - w/o 23-AUG-1990
695-95044 Jetprop 980         N9796S - XA-LEI - XC-FUT - N65664 - JA8604 - w/o 24-MAR-2003
695-95045 Jetprop 980         N9797S - "HK-268P82" - XC-TXA - XC-AA98 - XC-DAC - N981WJ -
695-95046 Jetprop 980         N9798S - XA-LEJ - XB-DSA - (N94MA) - MT-221 (Mexican Navy) - AMP-130 (Mexican Navy) - XB-DIV
695-95047 Jetprop 980         N9799S - N1981S - N301MP - N1981S
695-95048 Jetprop 980         N9800S - N980DT - [stolen 11Dec88 Lebanon, MO, USA; never recovered; canx 02Apr98]
695-95049 Jetprop 980         N9801S - CP-1640 - FAB-019 (Bolivian AF) CP-1640 - N3982C - N980GR
695-95050 Jetprop 980         N9802S - N707SC - HK-3408X - HK-3408W - HK-3408 - [canx 06Mar00 - status?]
695-95051 Jetprop 980         N9803S - LV-PLS - LV-OOE - HK-3443X - HK-3443 - XC-HGG - XB-ACO - MT-224 (Mexican Navy) AMP-131 (Mexican Navy)
695-95052 Jetprop 980         N9804S - HK-2738X - HK-2738 - HK-2738P - HK-2738W - XC-ENL - XC-AA84 - XC-ALB - XB-KFD
695-95053 Jetprop 980         N9805S - N73DC - N73DQ - ZP-TFV
695-95054 Jetprop 980         N9806S - D-IBAR - w/o 31-JAN-1985; canx cFeb85
695-95055 Jetprop 980 1980 N9807S - N29SA - FAC5553 - Fuerza Aérea Colombiana
695-95056 Jetprop 980         N9808S - N980JD - N980GC - N980BM - TI-MEL
695-95057 Jetprop 980         N9809S - HK-3444X - HK-3444 - [canx 23Feb00 - status?]
695-95058 Jetprop 980 1980 N9810S - D-IMOL - N125DC - N243AR - YV-893CP - YV2175
695-95059 Jetprop 980         N9811S - N980CT - HK-3819X - HK-3819 - [canx 29Feb00 - status?]
695-95060 Jetprop 980         N9812S
695-95061 Jetprop 980         N9813S - N30SA - N9818S - HK-2608X - HK-2608 - HK-2608P - XC-HGL - XC-AA15 - XC-PPF - N980WJ HK-4583X - HK-4583
695-95062 Jetprop 980       N9814S - N200BD - N92MT - HK-3406X - HK-3406 - [canx 11Apr00 - status?]
695-95063 Jetprop 980         N9814S - N9815S - N4712W - ZS-KZN - N4712W - N331NF - N980GM -  N980GZ
     -95064                          (N9816S) [built as Rockwell Commander 690C c/n 11709]
695-95065 Jetprop 980         N9817S - N20ER - N980JS - HK-3455X - HK-3455 -[possibly seized in Colombia; canx 18Apr00 - status?]
695-95066 Jetprop 980         N9818S - HK-2682X - HK-2682 - HK-2682P - XB-ORA - EJC-115 (Colombian Army) - EJC-022 (Colombian Army) - EJC-1115 - Ejercito Colombiano
695-95067 Jetprop 980         N9819S - YV-407CP [stolen 13Jan87 Caracas-Oscar Machado Zuloaga International, Venezuela; possibly since seized by Colombian AF]
695-95068 Jetprop 980         N9820S - ZS-KZR - N9820S - HK-3409X HK-3409W XC-AA62
695-95069 Jetprop 980         N695EC - HB-LQA - VR-CBP - N14CX - N14CN - N9821S - D-IHUC - PR-DBR
695-95070 Jetprop 980 1981 N9822S - N35SA - JA8600 - N38AA - JA8600
695-95071 Jetprop 980 1981 N9823S - N810EC - [status? possibly exported to South America c1987;
695-95072 Jetprop 980         N9824S - D-IBAI - N96MA - HK-3492X - HK-3492 - XC-HHM - XC-HGH
695-95073 Jetprop 980 1981 N9825S - N200TT - [status? possibly exported to Colombia c1988]
695-95074 Jetprop 980         N9826S - N980DW - HK-3405X - HK-3405 - "C-FRMP" - C-GREV - N3212A - YV-980CP - N357ST - (N980GK) (N123MZ) N357ST
695-95075 Jetprop 980         N9827S - N716CC - HK-3407X - HK-3407 - [canx 02Feb00 - status?]
695-95076 Jetprop 980 1981 N9828S - N76HH - status? possibly exported to Colombia cApr89
695-95077 Jetprop 980         N9829S - N221K - status? possibly sold in Colombia cDec88;
695-95078 Jetprop 980 1981 N9830S - JA8826 -  N980MH - JA860A - [canx 10May01 - status?]
695-95079 Jetprop 980         N9831S - HK-3481X - HK-3481
695-95080 Jetprop 980         N9832S - N37SA - N81405 - N999ST - HK-3394X - PNP-218 - Peruvian National Police
695-95081 Jetprop 980         N9833S - N888NT - N808NT - status? possibly exported to Colombia cJul90
695-95082 Jetprop 980         N9834S - N810K - HK-3453X -  HK-3453 - MT-222 (Mexican Navy) - AMP-133 (Mexican Navy)
695-95083 Jetprop 980         N9835S - N980JP - C-GTCI - N70318 - HK-3450X - HK-3450W - HK-3450 - HK-3450P [canx 17Feb97 - status?]
695-95084 Jetprop 980         N9836S - N980JC - YV-787CP - YV2020

Production complete
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 11, 2021, 09:18:56 pm
Let me see if I can figure out which ones the 11 are...

695-95002 Jetprop 980 1980 N980R - N8LB - N8LN - N980BH - N905BL -  N980BH
695-95008 Jetprop 980         N9761S - N515AM
695-95013 Jetprop 980 1980 N9766S - N200M - N500TH - N519HB  - N25TN -
695-95019 Jetprop 980         N9772S - N980JC - PK-ODR - A-2022 - Indonesian Army
695-95023 Jetprop 980         N9776S - D-IMKO - N888SF - N700PC - N708PC
695-95024 Jetprop 980 1980 N9778S - N66FP - N36JT current
695-95033 Jetprop 980         N87SA - N8774P -  N126M
695-95041 Jetprop 980 1981 N9793S - N400DK - N400DW - N3U - N218MS
695-95049 Jetprop 980         N9801S - CP-1640 - FAB-019 (Bolivian AF) CP-1640 - N3982C - N980GR
695-95060 Jetprop 980         N9812S

Which one did I miss?

Also, what is the story with 95047? Did it crash? I was talking today with my friend who flew it from new, and we were wondering what happened to it.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 21, 2021, 05:23:56 pm
95078-- N980AE?

According to Flightaware, appears to have headed to Europe recently, but on a trip or staying there permanently?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on March 24, 2021, 12:29:06 pm
That’s interesting, thanks for the info
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on March 24, 2021, 02:46:17 pm
Love it DonV, good call, I only had x10, had an international listed in the US... who are we missing??  Love a good mystery.
Would love to know how close I got with the International ones as well?

Shame such an amazing tool as the 980 that is 40 years old and comparable to today's aircraft and so few in use.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on March 24, 2021, 04:42:42 pm
I'm thinking N940AC, which has 840 serial number 11629 but I believe may have been converted at the factory to a 980 when it was new?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on April 09, 2021, 10:24:53 am
Bruce, who are we missing?  Is Don right, are we missing N940AC?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on May 06, 2021, 04:40:36 pm
I see N980GR on the market. Looks like a really nice airplane.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on July 28, 2021, 09:56:33 am
Question for you DonV.
I've always noted that N940AC has been referred to as a 695 (980), yet the CN is not a 95XXX, but a 11XXX.
Seems N940AC is now G-LEGZ and doing charters for a 'Legair LTD' in the UK.  Still event their website refers to it as a 980.
Any reason this one is listed that way?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 28, 2021, 12:36:29 pm
I'm pretty sure N940AC was either switched over on the production line or was converted after it was built. Either way, it is a 980.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 04, 2021, 01:10:30 pm
I guess my question is, why not change CN?  Wouldn't any 840 with converted Dash 10's be considered a 980 then?
I assumed the shorter wings would prevent it being an actual 980.

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 04, 2021, 02:21:22 pm
Barry Collman could answer about the serial number.

The wings are the same between 840 and 980. Shorter on the 690A/B, but all of the JetProps have the same wing.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 05, 2021, 09:09:00 am
Thanks Don, just a curious one for me.  I assume with the 11xxx CN its not a jetprop thus technically shouldn't be a 980 with the shorter wings? 
Again, just an oddball that always had me wondering.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 05, 2021, 02:04:49 pm
No, 116xx and 117xx are 840s (technically 690C).
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 06, 2021, 08:11:19 am
Ah silly me, good call Don.  Didn't look close enough on that one.
So would all converted 840's to dash 10's be 980s?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 06, 2021, 12:48:07 pm
No. The 980 has different engines (yes, they are all -10s, but the conversions are -10Ts and the 980/1000 are -10-511k). The 980 has 733 horsepower on takeoff, versus 717, and it has single red line computers for engine management.

So there is a difference. I believe there have been a few 840s truly converted to 980s, but that conversion process was much more expensive than just puting -10T engines on, and arguably you didn't get much more.

The easy way to tell a 980 from at 840 by looking at the panel is that the 980 has two "Auto Start Override" buttons somewhere on the panel, usually in a prominent spot. They are large buttons with lights in them, and pretty easy to spot.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 09, 2021, 11:39:55 am
Always a wealth of knowledge, thanks again Don.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on September 23, 2021, 12:03:47 pm
Another 980 down (although a year ago, like its the 80's all over again)...
https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/crash-rockwell-gulfstream-695-jetprop-980-san-jose-la-maquina


Anyone know what happened to the indonesian 980?  I saw it made it to US (can't find reg, but know its NXxxx now.
Or World Jets N981WJ?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on September 23, 2021, 04:07:15 pm
Ouch! That was a nasty impact.

As far as I know the Indonesian airplane is still in the US... can't remember the registration number, although I knew it at one time.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on September 24, 2021, 10:48:21 am
They keep killing all these beautiful longwings! Can't they smuggle in 310's or something??
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Steve binnette on September 24, 2021, 11:44:41 am
Adam, my thoughts exactly.  Kill a Pilatus instead!  There are plenty of those around!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on September 30, 2021, 09:22:28 am
N192LH is the Indonesian, forgot we had whole different thread on that topic...
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on January 05, 2022, 11:28:58 am
Don/Steve-
980 for sale, PR-DRY.  They are putting 5-blades on their too.  Interested on final sale price if possible when it goes.

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/210748741/1980-commander-980-turboprop-aircraft
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on January 05, 2022, 12:13:05 pm
Looks like a really nice airplane.

If you look in the fine print, it mentions "based in Brazil, all taxes paid." I think Brazil has really, really high import taxes, so it will probably stay there because it's already there and the taxes are paid. So I don't really know what the price will reflect, because of the tax situation and also the general situation in Brazil.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on January 05, 2022, 08:34:38 pm
Looks like a sweetheart.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on January 06, 2022, 10:18:37 pm
It certainly was a sweetheart at one time but it has a suspect panel install among other things and has been down south long enough to be destroyed.  Not saying that’s the case, but it is becoming increasingly difficult and uneconomical to recover and restore these birds from far away and even locally. The inflated market will help us recover some planes, I hope.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on January 07, 2022, 07:50:38 am
Thanks for that info Bruce, any guess what it may go for?
Why do planes go to die in S. America?  Is there no decent service centers, or is everything suspect so you can't trust anything?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on January 07, 2022, 05:29:00 pm
Bruce probably knows more about that topic than anyone, so I'd be interested in his opinion.

Barry Lane told me the best maintained Commander he ever flew was a Mexican airplane, so they're not all bad.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on April 26, 2022, 04:53:27 pm
OK, likely a question for DonV.

Take a look-  Winglets show '980' tail looks like a 980 (no dorsal), but SN is wrong...
So 690 or 980???


https://www.airliners.net/photo/Mexico-Air-Force/Rockwell-690A-Turbo-Commander/6823615/L?qsp=eJwtjUEKAkEMBL8iOXsRwcPe9AN68AMxaXRxZ2fIRHRY9u/GwVvRXXQvJHl2fPzaCmigCjZ50JYKG6dKw0JPtHc2DSZ/2S1vJKfEs8JCq9n81KJSdhxFUBz6z8/2c6JClb54j4ddAOzSmfaHyHWsZeK%2BAedxonX9AlnvMp0%3D
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on April 26, 2022, 05:12:40 pm
I don't know... serial number is from a 690A, but that might not be right either.

At least they pulled it out of the mud and put some spinners on!

Earlier picture:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Mexico-Air-Force/Rockwell-690A-Turbo-Commander/6565703?qsp=eJwtjUEKAjEQBP8yZy9RENybPkAF/cA4aTWQ7IbJBFyW/bsxeCuaonohmUbDx%2B5zBg1UwCpv2lBm5VRoWCjxWJ8sVhV6gwaO55oe0GY7tz3sm1wmtdPcBs%2BGowiywf/3i/ruehTp3Vf7cQ2g1860%2ByV8KDlyb8A4RFrXL2c3M/w%3D
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on April 27, 2022, 12:13:22 pm
Love a good mystery.
I gotta think its a 980, but you are right CN isn't correct.  Wonder if they can get a pic of the SN plaque.

Another odd observation is those prop caps.  Shortened version I suppose.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on April 27, 2022, 12:15:31 pm
I am pretty confident that it is a 690A. Not highly confident, not confident enough that I would bet any money on it, though. Other pictures have tagged it as a 690A.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on April 28, 2022, 12:40:14 am
980 - exhausts, pitots, landing lights, winglets, wing, etc
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on April 28, 2022, 11:47:05 am
I guess they repainted it since 2017?

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8630616

Apparently it's 95010... I think maybe mentioned earlier in this thread?

https://www.planelogger.com/Aircraft/Registration/3963/607487
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on May 02, 2022, 03:52:07 pm
Coming over the top for the win, thanks Bruce!
Odd to repaint it, I guess for museum purposes. 
Seeing pics like this I wonder when the airframe became no longer usable, a 980 like this I would think you could clean up and sell unless engines are a mess.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on May 02, 2022, 05:03:48 pm
I would guess they are bringing it back into service?

Given where prices are these days, it could probably be brought back to life, but I don't know if the Mexican government cares.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on May 05, 2022, 09:04:39 am
Just curious on Bruce's comment, I understand each point except 'landing lights' proving its a 980.  Can someone elaborate on that?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on May 05, 2022, 11:57:36 am
He is talking about the landing lights on the nose. 690s have landing lights which extend from the wings. From the factory, 690s (except possibly the late 690Bs, and maybe it was optional even then) didn't even have taxi lights on the gear.

That said, I would be careful about using the landing lights on the nose as an indicator, because I know there are mods which can put similar lights on a 690.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: appleseed on May 05, 2022, 02:56:33 pm
I feel like the dead giveaway to differentiate the 690s is the non-dihedral stub wing extension in between the the engine and fuselage. Vs the continuous taper of the longwings.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on May 05, 2022, 03:54:31 pm
I don't think that's right, or I don't know what to look for.

I believe you are talking about the difference between the pre-690 turboprops (680T,V,W and 681) and the 690 series. The span between the fuselage and engine on the 690/A/B and the Jetprops (840/980/900/1000) is the same, unless I am missing something.

I feel like the dead giveaway to differentiate the 690s is the non-dihedral stub wing extension in between the the engine and fuselage. Vs the continuous taper of the longwings.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on May 05, 2022, 11:02:17 pm
I don't think that's right, or I don't know what to look for.

I believe you are talking about the difference between the pre-690 turboprops (680T,V,W and 681) and the 690 series. The span between the fuselage and engine on the 690/A/B and the Jetprops (840/980/900/1000) is the same, unless I am missing something.

I feel like the dead giveaway to differentiate the 690s is the non-dihedral stub wing extension in between the the engine and fuselage. Vs the continuous taper of the longwings.

Don is right on
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on May 05, 2022, 11:11:43 pm
Bruce, is there a mod for the 690s which makes the nose-mounted landing lights identical to the Jetprops?

Most of the 690s I have seen with nose-mounted lights have a less streamlined lens than the Jetprops, but obviously you have seen way more airplanes than I have.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: appleseed on May 05, 2022, 11:36:33 pm
Thanks for the correction Don & Bruce. I always thought that the wing redesign under Gulfstream did away with the non-dihedral stub wing.

I hope I get to see one of these in the wild again soon. The difference is not do easy to see in pics.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on May 06, 2022, 07:29:33 am
For me, the dorsal fin is the dead giveaway. The 690's have one that's easily spottable, whereas the 840/980 doesn't have on and the 900/1000 has a rounded, dolphin-like one.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on May 06, 2022, 01:32:45 pm
Great info, thanks everyone.

New topic,
Rockwell creates the 690 with -5's.  Then they develop the -10 (assuming Gulfstream owns the line at this time) and load them on the 695/980.  Was the 695A/B, 1000 created just to stretch out the fuselage (leg room) and add rear back seat/potty?
I guess my question is what was the thinking at the time of creation?   Or are the gross weight, etc improvements that much better?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on May 06, 2022, 11:10:53 pm
As I understand it, what happened was that the 690A was clearly a home run-- and I think the top-selling turboprop for a few years in the 1970s. Once they had that, they went out and surveyed the customer base about what they did and did not like.

Then, like any smart company, they put together a product road map. The first step was to redesign the wing to eliminate the fuel bladders, and also the corrosion problems which were starting to rear their heads. They also went with a new technology, light weight air cycle machine, which both reduced the empty weight (as did the wet wing), and increased greatly the baggage space. A customer complaint was useful load with full fuel, so they improved that. Step one.

Step two was adding the -10 engines, which gave a big boost in performance. These airplanes became the 840 and 980.

The next big thing that Commander customers complained about was the pressurization, especially since the -10 engines gave them the performance to operate in the 30s. So step 3 in the product road map, now that they had redesigned the wing, was to redesign the fuselage so that it could accommodate higher pressurization differentials, and while they were at it, increased the cabin height and lowered the noise levels. They were also able to take back some of that large baggage space and make an enclosed bathroom, another customer request.

The combination of the redesigned wing and the redesigned fuselage was the 1000. In the recession of the early 1980s, there was demand for a cheaper version of the 1000, which was easily created by putting -5s on the 1000 airframe and creating the 900.

The last step in the product roadmap was an airplane which could cruise faster in the mid-30s, ideally around 320-330 knots, to at least keep up with the latest competition, the Cheyenne 400LS. This airplane would also have higher weights, to give it better range with more passengers, and a higher landing weight.

This was going to be the 1200, but the -12 engines it relied on were never able to deliver the power necessary, and it's not clear that even with the power they would have delivered the speed to keep up with the 400LS. However, Commander was able to complete the engineering on the weight increases, and this resulted in the 695B (or 1000B as it is sometimes called). This was the ultimate Commander, and according to a presentation I saw, checked all the boxes of the 1200 except for cruise speed.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on May 09, 2022, 01:21:41 pm
Always insightful, thank you.

One question from your post, I thought all 840's were -5's from the factory?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on May 09, 2022, 01:26:48 pm
Yes, all 840s (and 900s) were -5 from the factory. Sorry I wasn't clear about that. The 840 had the redesigned wing and environmental system, but still had -5s.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on May 10, 2022, 11:19:36 am
No apology necessary I appreciate you always taking the time to answer my questions with great insight.
Would love to see a picture of a bunch of commanders sitting in a field during the recession period.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on July 22, 2022, 03:09:06 pm
So...  love the S. American mysteries.

https://subastasmx.info/subasta.php?subasta=598&lote=1006

CN 9500, yet in database 9500 is XC-UJW.

Funny the pics are even suspect.  Look at the ident plate by the tail, that is not factory.
Amazing how shady things get when planes head south.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 22, 2022, 03:46:02 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if the registration number has changed since that database was updated. I don't know if there is a way to search Mexican registry?

In any event, looks like a way better airplane than most Mexican Commanders!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on July 22, 2022, 03:50:43 pm
Actually, I bet it is 95000. Bruce would probably now.

Asking price seems a bit high, unless that is in pesos!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on July 29, 2022, 11:34:42 am
Appreciate you always following up DonV.
Wondering, it seems 695GG (Golden Giant) seems under new ownership?  I only ask because I read awhile back it was Gene Good's 1000's.  Seemed like a long standing commander owner.   
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 11, 2022, 01:52:54 pm
Odd question, surely DonV will have insight :)

If you look at the Construction list for 980's 95000-95084, a good number end up in HK or YV (columbia/venezuela) tail numbers... are they confiscated from the drug trade they seem mostly military/police?

Amazed at how many are just 'missing'  how does a 980 just disappear.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 12, 2022, 07:32:35 pm
Bruce sold a bunch of them down there, he would have a better idea. However, even though a lot of them were confiscated drug airplanes, I would guess more of them were sold new (or fairly new) down there to legitimate owners. Turbo Commanders are just great airplanes for down there, and there is a big service center in Venezuela, so that's not an issue (are they still going?)-- just a great fit.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 19, 2022, 10:51:44 am
Interesting, didn't know that many sold new.  Thanks for always taking the time Don.

Flew to Bermuda, he's the view from the cockpit at 30,000.

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 19, 2022, 10:55:40 am
Ouch! Well, seen that before.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: schrambow on August 19, 2022, 10:58:40 am
Wow!
just wondering your take on this of the cause?  Cold temp?
Did you decent to lower altitudes when this happened?  Did (does) one slow the machine up a bit to baby it back to airport?  Just wondering the correct response to an issue like this?   And i hope you get it fix quickly!

Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: SKYFLYER on August 19, 2022, 12:00:48 pm
Most of the time it is reach for the check book and write one for 50K  Total bummer
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 19, 2022, 01:07:26 pm
Descend, reduce the pressure differential, and carry on is what the checklist says. You can fly one additional leg to a repair station after you land, respecting the reduced pressure differential, according to the AFM.

Wow!
just wondering your take on this of the cause?  Cold temp?
Did you decent to lower altitudes when this happened?  Did (does) one slow the machine up a bit to baby it back to airport?  Just wondering the correct response to an issue like this?   And i hope you get it fix quickly!
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JimC on August 19, 2022, 03:45:17 pm
That's what scares me about that particular flight - Bermuda.

Let's say you have enough fuel to fly to Bermuda, go missed, and go to your alternate (back to the US.)

Now let's say you have to make the return leg at lower altitude and higher fuel burn due to a broken windshield (or  an FCU failure, or...)

Will you make it?

Bermuda is so beautiful, and leaves you with soooooo few options when things go pear-shaped.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 22, 2022, 11:04:12 am
So as it was told to me-  the internal glass is 'the strong pane' and the outside glass that was cracked mostly holds the wiring for the heated windshield in place.
Please let me know if I understand this correctly.  We have been waiting over 4 months for a new windshield, and flown multiple legs with it cracked.
Since 1980 I think we are at double digit replacements at this point.

Bermuda you better get right, we were dodging storms most of the way there.  Then on the return flight were rerouted multiple times to find an open customs agent as PHL said they were 'busy'.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N515AM/history/20220818/1500Z/TXKF/KBWI
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 22, 2022, 01:17:06 pm
Unfortunately, I am pretty sure that both windshield panes are the same. I know that on some airplanes, the Westwind/Jet Commander in particular, you are right that the inner one is structural and the outer one is heat. However, on the Commander both panes are the same, and either one can crack. In my case, it was the internal pane.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JimC on August 23, 2022, 02:32:41 pm

Since 1980 I think we are at double digit replacements at this point.

Was it the same side each time?

If it was each side evenly, then that means you get about 8 years out of a windshield, or $6500/year for the windshield budget.

If it was one side only then something's weird.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 23, 2022, 02:35:13 pm
That does seem like a lot. My airplane has had one replacement on the left, and I think one replacement on the right, since 1980.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on August 23, 2022, 11:20:43 pm
Let me ask you this - would you give up the heated window, if it meant a Lexan or plastic window could be a replacement part that never broke?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on August 24, 2022, 02:23:23 am
Let me ask you this - would you give up the heated window, if it meant a Lexan or plastic window could be a replacement part that never broke?

Q: Does it defrost?

if the answer is “no,” then, sadly, it won’t work without some significant reeingineering.  Unless it’s a  at low altitude flight, most flights with pax onboard and/or at altitude, the windows are frosted over.  Even plastic Citation windows are cost a major portion of that of a Commamder and they usually don’t last as long and are kind of terrible to fly with.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 24, 2022, 10:47:40 am
Absolutely not. In addition to what Bruce said, the reality is that those windshields last a long time. In fact, I remember hearing complaints about how short the life of the plastic Shrike windshields were.

As I mentioned, one of my windshields lasted almost 40 years, and the other one went 24. They have a five year warranty!

Let me ask you this - would you give up the heated window, if it meant a Lexan or plastic window could be a replacement part that never broke?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 24, 2022, 03:08:55 pm
I may be high on double digits, but we have had both sides including both internal and external panes break.  Some was just bad luck (landscaper at FBO kicked up a rock and hit windshield one time), some happened mid-air.

Thanks Don, so would it be considered dangerous to fly?  Again, its not that we don't want it fixed, we just can't get one.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 24, 2022, 03:18:30 pm
I wouldn't fly it again. Yes, one pane is supposed to be structurally enough, but the first pane broke and they are the same age, so eventually the other one will break too. And if the second one goes, that would be bad news.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 31, 2022, 09:27:13 am
Not related to 980, but thats a long ferry flight :)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/the-story-behind-the-cessna-172-that-flew-from-california-to-hawaii/ar-AA11htBS?cvid=2944c94961f94f79b30be6dc7448ecf0#image=1
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 31, 2022, 10:44:53 am
I'm a bit surprised that you can't get one. I realize it's the old supply chain thing again, but Twin Commander (and some of the service centers) used to keep these in stock-- in fact Twin Commander was running a special deal on windshields not long ago! I guess they depleted their inventory.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on September 06, 2022, 11:02:52 am
If you know of any please let me know.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on September 20, 2022, 08:08:58 am
Sorry, I just tend to post in the same thread, even if topic may not be related.
Anyway, trying to do a bit of sleuthing, and although many many decades ago, perhaps Bruce may be able to help.
My father prior to owning the 980 had a 690.  He bought it from Byerly (I believe your uncle sold him that and the 980 Bruce).   He recently told me it had come from South Africa and the back passenger bench had a large gas tank under the seat as it was used by a local missionary to reach far out destinations.  Byerly re-registered to something NXXXCF, but my father cannot remember the tail number.  Anything in the books possibly Bruce?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on September 20, 2022, 02:52:18 pm
I know some CF’s but going to need more info than that to find it.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on September 20, 2022, 03:36:20 pm
Think I had it backwards Bruce, my father bought it from Byerly, then it was transferred to S. Africa.

An online commander production list shows only one NxxxCF mentioned below.  Guessing this must have been it.

690-11069 Turbo Commander         N123CF - N321MG - [wfu c1998 Malindi, Kenya]
      11070                                     [built as Rockwell Commander 690A c/n 11100]
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Bruce Byerly on September 20, 2022, 09:31:16 pm
That’s a straight 690.  There are other 690A’s, N245CF off the top of my head.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on September 20, 2022, 09:55:38 pm
I've been flying N690CF, but I know it's not that one.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on September 21, 2022, 08:14:31 am
Yeah thats what my father said it was as well a straight 690 (Not A/B).  Any history would be great if that still exists Bruce.  Likely sold to "AMI" not Larry directly.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on December 27, 2022, 01:29:34 pm
I know we had a thread somewhere on this topic, couldn't find it though, but that winter storm gave us a great push home.
420 knots cruise, descent got to 460kts.  1980 aircraft still got it.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on July 21, 2023, 11:26:15 am

So quick controller search suggests a couple of planes that have comparable performance to the Commander (think epic/pilatus, etc), but for $3-5 mill.  Seems safety of two engines/fraction of the price (even after overhaul/refurb) a used Commander would be the better choice?  Just curious if people searching in this niche are looking at Commanders or not?
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JimC on August 14, 2023, 07:45:06 pm
Some people just want new, and some banks just want new.

No matter how great we think these planes are, there will be some minds we just can't change.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 14, 2023, 11:27:09 pm
The 1000 (695A and especially B) are superb airplanes, in my opinion better for most missions than any turboprop on the market today.

However, many people, maybe most, view them as 40+ year old antiques. They don't want something that old... and what about parts? (ignoring that Pilatus and TBM certainly have their own parts issues!).

So I understand it... the thing is, some Commanders, think the big pistons like the 680 series, really ARE antiques and need to be viewed in that light. But from the 690A on they are still fantastic transportation.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 16, 2023, 08:13:01 am
Parts are an issue across the board.  I just wonder if they are really taking a look at the commander, but I do agree some people just love the new plane smell and cant resist.
Thank you both, appreciate the view points.

Without any disrespect meant whatsoever- is this gentleman a member here?
Adam J. Barney, the pilot of the Aero Commander 500:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article278213752.html
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: Adam Frisch on August 17, 2023, 11:12:48 pm
Parts are an issue across the board.  I just wonder if they are really taking a look at the commander, but I do agree some people just love the new plane smell and cant resist.
Thank you both, appreciate the view points.

Without any disrespect meant whatsoever- is this gentleman a member here?
Adam J. Barney, the pilot of the Aero Commander 500:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article278213752.html

Don't think he is, but the YouTube channel BaronPilot did fly along in his 500 with him. Looked like an immaculate plane and he seemed to have taken great pride in it. Sad it got lost, but glad he survived.
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on August 19, 2023, 11:36:54 am
Some good 980 photos in the Vintage photo thread, @JMA !
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: JMA on August 21, 2023, 10:48:17 am
Just saw them. downloading and bringing to the old man.  Wish I could get him to join on here, he would have a field day. 
Title: Re: 980 Questions
Post by: donv on October 25, 2023, 11:47:08 pm
We need some more 980 photos here!