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Author Topic: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840  (Read 8318 times)

kent4142

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Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« on: May 11, 2018, 09:10:33 pm »
So, a funny thing happened to me on the way home from Peoria, IL to Florida the other day.

I left Byerly Aviation in Peoria Thursday and leveled off at flight level 270.  Shortly after leveling off, Chicago Center asked me what my indicated airspeed was.  I told him 180 knots.  Then Chicago Center asked the other aircraft if he could go any faster.  The other pilot reported no - he was at his maximum speed.  Chicago came back to me and said N97WT "reduce your speed to 170 knots.  I said "170 knots yes sir".  A little while later I reported in to the next controller and told him I was level at flight level 270 with a speed restriction, expecting him to let me go back to "normal speed".   He said "do not exceed 165 knots."  I said "yes sir" 165 knots.  I didn't really say "yes sir" that was just for effect.  But do you know, I flew all the way to Atlanta with that speed restriction?

I finally learned why I had the speed restriction when on-coming traffic was told to look for a King Air and a Commander at 12 o'clock 10 miles eastbound at FL270.  When I got home I looked up the N number.  I was following a 1981 King Air 200!  I had to chuckle when I learned about the reason for my speed restriction and  I just had to tell somebody. 

I didn't mind really.  We were doing 311 knots ground speed and my fuel burn was 54 gallons an hour.

Bruce Byerly

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2018, 09:14:23 pm »
So, a funny thing happened to me on the way home from Peoria, IL to Florida the other day.

I left Byerly Aviation in Peoria Thursday and leveled off at flight level 270.  Shortly after leveling off, Chicago Center asked me what my indicated airspeed was.  I told him 180 knots.  Then Chicago Center asked the other aircraft if he could go any faster.  The other pilot reported no - he was at his maximum speed.  Chicago came back to me and said N97WT "reduce your speed to 170 knots.  I said "170 knots yes sir".  A little while later I reported in to the next controller and told him I was level at flight level 270 with a speed restriction, expecting him to let me go back to "normal speed".   He said "do not exceed 165 knots."  I said "yes sir" 165 knots.  I didn't really say "yes sir" that was just for effect.  But do you know, I flew all the way to Atlanta with that speed restriction?

I finally learned why I had the speed restriction when on-coming traffic was told to look for a King Air and a Commander at 12 o'clock 10 miles eastbound at FL270.  When I got home I looked up the N number.  I was following a 1981 King Air 200!  I had to chuckle when I learned about the reason for my speed restriction and  I just had to tell somebody. 

I didn't mind really.  We were doing 311 knots ground speed and my fuel burn was 54 gallons an hour.

Ha! Post of the month goes to Kent!  8)  ;D

donv

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2018, 11:17:51 am »
That is great!

And I can only guess at how much higher his fuel burns were, as well.

donv

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2018, 06:11:04 pm »
I'm tentatively going to do a trip jointly with a King Air 350 this fall. It will be interesting to compare... of course, they will probably have 8 pax and 2 crew, while I will only have 6 pax plus myself.

The 350 should be a little bit faster, but I think it will burn quite a bit more fuel.

Steve binnette

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2018, 01:14:28 pm »
Don, let us know how they compare.

I would be curious on the weights and time to climb in addition to the speeds and fuel used.

Adam Frisch

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2018, 01:48:16 pm »
I'm tentatively going to do a trip jointly with a King Air 350 this fall. It will be interesting to compare... of course, they will probably have 8 pax and 2 crew, while I will only have 6 pax plus myself.

The 350 should be a little bit faster, but I think it will burn quite a bit more fuel.

My guess it will burn at least 700-800lbs/hr.
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

kent4142

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2018, 08:48:29 pm »
This is thread "leap" instead of thread "creep" - but since my speed restriction flight I have been thinking about that 54 gallons per hour.  I keep forgetting to check to see what the fuel burn has been for my climb, or the fuel burn for the first hour.  Do you guys have that number in your heads for a dash 10 690?

Any way.  What I was thinking about was flying my 840 like it had dash 5 engines.  Just for range.

I have a 1900 nm trip going east coming up.  I wondered if I could go non stop.  So if I assumed no wind.  If I figured 100 gallons for the first hour, which I believe to be highly conservative.  That would leave 375 gallons for the remainder of the flight.  Also, if I figured 235 nm traveled for the first hour.  That would leave 1665 nautical miles to my destination.  Also, for assumptions.  FL 270 and -25˙ C for temperature.  On my speed restricted flight I was burning 54 gph.  Sooooo, according to my HP calculator 375 g / 54 gph gives me 6.9 more hours of flight.  1665 miles at 290 kts would take me 5.74 hours. 

Concluding,  it would take me 6.7 hours to fly 1900 nm.  I should burn another 310 gallons to get to my destination after the first hour.  So 410 gallons total for the flight.  I should land with 65 gallons in the tanks, or at "altitude cruise" 1.2 hours remaining for fuel reserve.

Where am I making my mistake?  I probably won't actually do this.  But I wondered if I could.  What do you guys think.  I should get some help from the wind which should had to the safety margins.

K

donv

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2018, 10:25:37 pm »
You can give it a try. I've seen people go 1900 miles, but always with a strong tailwind. With no wind, 1500 is it for me. But then you carry more fuel than I do, most likely.

I would train yourself to think in pounds rather than gallons, since that's what everything in the airplane is referenced to. Landing with 65 gallons would be just over 400 pounds, which is less than I would do, personally, but then I'm a big chicken when it comes to fuel.

I would generally prefer to go faster, stop, and have similar total trip time with less stress, but that's me. But, if you have a strong tailwind, then maybe.

What do your fuel gauges show when full of fuel?

Adam Frisch

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 01:03:38 am »
Kent - make sure your tanks actually have the full 474gal capacity. Depending on how they might have installed the bladders or if any creases or connecting tubes got squished etc, the capacity can vary a little bit. I think Don's ship, for instance, can not carry the full capacity for some reason suspected along those lines.

Have you drained yours and seen how much you can put in?

Normally the Foxboro totalizer/duel counter is very accurate, though. Mine is to the gallon. So as long as you know how much you got at the start, you can count on that counter.
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

Bruce Byerly

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2018, 06:45:24 pm »
True, there are likely fewer than 474 available.  At the next event or fuel calibration, have each side recorded for total quantity. 

Kent, another way to look at range, as I believe the most efficient profile is a high performance climb is this: no dilly dally-  25 lbs taxi to takeoff, about 175 lbs and 50nm to FL 270 using best rate from gear up, then take it from there. Basically, 200 lbs and 50 miles. Reserve fuel of 500 leaves 2,500 lbs.  that’s 5.0 hours at 500 pph and 300 knots let’s say. So 1,550 Nm for simple high speed planning.

Once at altitude, and assuming tailwind where slow/low ff  might make sense, your max L/D speed is higher at first (heavy) so use normal 96% cruise (most efficient rpm) at max egt and see what the FMS/Garmin tells you.  Pull it back 1/2 way to book LR cruise and see how you like that. Check book. Make notes. Try long range cruise setting.  I usually end up somewhere in between when trying to skip a stop.  Don’t have patience for LR cruise as the max range (constant power) is around 180 pph   :P and don’t want to cut it that tight.  But hey, skipping a stop is great, especially at 2am in Kansas  ;)  The book notes regarding the large increase in speed (decrease in time) for a 1% decrease in distance are interesting. 

If the forecast winds at altitude look good or improving, it might work.  It’s a real 1,600nm plane to me.  I land at anything below 400 lbs remaining over destination on the computer even when VFR.  I’ve made it Seattle to Miami so anything is possible under the right conditions. Just don’t run yourself into a corner low on fuel.  Never had a helmet fire worse than being low on fuel and feeling  “trapped” by WX!

donv

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2018, 08:21:34 pm »
Interesting, Bruce. I don't think I've ever seen 500pph at FL270 in my airplane. I'm usually 450 or less... however, in the 980 I'm often Mmo limited, so not running at 650 degrees. I try to stay 630 or below, and often am at 610 or so to stay just under the barber pole.

Adam Frisch

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2018, 11:23:52 pm »
I'm so envious of you 474 galloners! No better speed mod than LR. Can never have enough.
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

Bruce Byerly

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2018, 12:06:22 am »
Interesting, Bruce. I don't think I've ever seen 500pph at FL270 in my airplane. I'm usually 450 or less... however, in the 980 I'm often Mmo limited, so not running at 650 degrees. I try to stay 630 or below, and often am at 610 or so to stay just under the barber pole.

Perfect - You’re into the bonus fuel Don!  And of course it’s usually ISA+ these days with global warming and all.  But seriously, I believe it. Much depends on rigging, indication, comp settings, wear, and all the other variables. And there are a lot of those.

Steve binnette

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2018, 11:08:14 am »
I,don’t see 500lbs an hour in my 980 either.  It’s is always less but I do use 500lbs an hour for my fuel calculations.

Makes the math simple.

donv

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Re: Speed Restrictions in a Dash 10 840
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2018, 12:02:58 pm »
I'm so envious of you 474 galloners! No better speed mod than LR. Can never have enough.

I'm envious too, but I've learned to live with it. And really, 5 hours is enough for me.