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Author Topic: Maneuvering Speed  (Read 7923 times)

Bruce Byerly

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2020, 05:44:07 pm »
Steve, that Jepp suggestion is a good one. I had never looked at the turbulence section in the app, but I will do so going forward. Have you found it to be reasonably accurate?

Also, there is an old picture of your airplane and some interesting discussion about it on Facebook. Apparently it was used by the FBI in the search for the Unabomber-- maybe you already knew that.

I have found the turbulence predictor to be accurate.  This time of year going to Hawaii is bumpy and it comes in real handy.  Sometimes I will Flt plan for FL280 the entire way to avoid the bumps.  Once you are in Oceanic airspace changing altitudes can be a bit of a crap,shoot.  If you can make that call on the ground using the turbulence tool it helps.   

The jepp matches what I get on WSI which is a weather app provided by the airline.

I don’t have Facebook and have never heard the story involving my airplane and the FBI.  I knew the feds operated it but that’s it.

I read that. FBI and the Unabomber!? I should have asked Amis to make up something even more outlandish  ;D

Kent, yours originally was used to haul Mother Teresa between Calcutta and Rome and to which she credited much of her influence.  :P
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 05:46:16 pm by Bruce Byerly »

schrambow

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2020, 06:51:31 pm »
Hi All,

My son and I flew through some moderate to severe turbulence last Saturday in my 81, Commander 840 with -10 engines at 27,000.  The Turbulence was forecast between 18,000 and 28,000.  The controller notified us about it's proximity to our location via a pilot report.

My question to the group is:

1). What would you do operationally?  Land, slow down, climb, descend, ignore everything and just fly etc.

2)  If you said slow down - what speed would you slow down to and why?

Thanks,

Kent

Hello Kent,
that day of your flight you speak of, i was watching your flight path on flightaware and your progress through southern Indiana, Kentucky and through Tennessee where the higher radar echo's where showing on the radar apps.  Not that i snoop on everyone i know when they fly, lol, but on some big fronts/ weather systems like that day, as i do similar flights like you to Florida also, i like to log on and see what everyone is doing and going and at what altitudes. i like to try and guess what commander i am watching of who has the -10's and who has the -5's, as i am jealous of the -10's, but i also thought this day, RVSM 1000 at FL350 would be good on a day like that?;D.
Anyways, i was thinking to myself while you were over central Indiana, if i could/would have continued on over that wicked looking area you were approaching?  But then i thought, the radar seems to always look worse (especially the composite) in the winter time and that you probably were on top and were riding smooth anyways! Then i thought, hey he got bigger cahonas than i do! -sorry.
Anyways, as i start to get more gray hair on my head it seems that i am getting much more conservative regarding weather compared to how i was years ago in the Aztec's and Apache's. I think we have all have been in situations wishing we were not in the conditions we ventured into. My old examiner who as a young man was blown off a frigate ship in the Battle of the Coral Sea used to say to me:  "Its better to be on the ground wishing you were flying versus flying wishing you were on the ground!"
My ramblings here really don't address your core question of what airspeed to penetrate or what to ultimately do.  Very good topic here and i really like everyone's replies and guidance. Would love to listen and study this subject on the next Twin Commander gathering!

« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 06:53:51 pm by schrambow »

Bruce Byerly

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2020, 08:27:20 pm »
On that note, If it’s one of those tornado inspiring fronts, a delay looks like a good option.  Another strategy is to fly way around the weather. Even seemingly large deviations can lead to much less stressful flying. Sometimes flying through Ohio is the best route.

kent4142

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2020, 09:00:52 pm »
Hey Cory!

Nice to know "somebody" is watching over me.   :).

It isn't cahunnas, insert stupido.  Like my Dad used to say "fat dumb and happy".   The turbulence that was significant was actually on the back side of the front in clear air.  The turbulence passing through most of the yellow and green stuff was mild.  We did use the radar to deviate around "blobs" of precipitation.

Bruce you're scaring me.  I didn't know about the tornados until I was looking at the news the next day.  But I am glad to know my airplane helped Mother Theresa make this a better world!!!!!!

This is a huge new learning experience for me.  One that God has spared my life and given me another chance.  I learned to: Check winds aloft on every preflight, and also check the turbulence forecast. Another red flag / area of investigation is intensity of the wind, location of "jet stream" edges and especially "jet stream" elbows.

 If in this situation again, slow down to 170 ish, and descend, or even go completely around.  I really wasn't aware of this danger zone.  It never came up in training.  I definitely think this should be a chapter in somebody's syllabus for flying higher in fancier and faster hardware.

Thanks again for all the info.!!!!!

schrambow

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2020, 10:58:03 am »
I don't want to beat a dead horse on this subject, but i would love to see some examples and maps of these elbows and some charts pertaining to areas to avoid looking at the winds aloft and jets stream elbows.  When we get another nice weather system like this last one that came through, if someone could take some screen shots and some photos of these elbows, and maybe post on here of some "what if scenarios" of areas to not fly into would be great training and guidance for all of us.  I know each weather system is a completely different animal and no two are alike, but practice preflighting and pretend fight paths would be both educational and fun i think.
I know it takes time, which most of us don't have, but its just a thought.
 

donv

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2020, 12:18:21 pm »
Look at south Florida... not the most extreme version, but you can still see how the jetstream bends back on itself down there. That's where I would look for turbulence. Also on the border of Arizona and New Mexico, although it's less pronounced.

Basically, anywhere you are flying through a gradient of rapidly changing wind speeds and directions over a fairly short distance.

schrambow

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2020, 03:43:31 pm »
Hello Don,

i have the highlight/circled the areas you mentioned in white, however, i still don't understand these areas and/or see the elbow specific to these areas mentioned.  Do you mean a sudden change in direction over a short distance?  Or  a bend upward to downward to the next wind mark?  Sorry if this comes across as dense, but i just wanted to be certain of what i should be looking at. thanks

donv

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2020, 06:40:26 pm »
A sudden direction change in a short distance.

Above and to the right of your Florida circle. Maybe that's Bahamas, I may have misspoke about Florida.

Bruce Byerly

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2020, 11:05:59 pm »
I don't want to beat a dead horse on this subject, but i would love to see some examples and maps of these elbows and some charts pertaining to areas to avoid looking at the winds aloft and jets stream elbows.  When we get another nice weather system like this last one that came through, if someone could take some screen shots and some photos of these elbows, and maybe post on here of some "what if scenarios" of areas to not fly into would be great training and guidance for all of us.  I know each weather system is a completely different animal and no two are alike, but practice preflighting and pretend fight paths would be both educational and fun i think.
I know it takes time, which most of us don't have, but its just a thought.
 

Fascinating subject, meteorology. Always learning. Sometimes I feel like weather is the weakest part of our flight training.

I don’t mean to be scary nor do I have the experience of someone like Steve in terms of crossing these fronts. But when I see a well organized and intense system/squall line like that one, a 100 mile or even larger deviation looks like a good plan to me. Watching the airlines work around them on fight aware is fun sometimes though they can obviously top stuff that we can’t in a t-prop.

Steve binnette

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2020, 11:38:57 am »
Don makes a good point about local knowledge.  Controllers can help as can other pilots arriving and departing from an area.

We go into Mammoth several times a year and I give that place lots of respect.  I have talked to too many guys that have been surprised going into mammoth.  The airport weather can be OK but the top of the mountain might be blowing like crazy.  I have learned to check wind speeds from the ski resort.  I will also check the webcams if they have them.

If you have to fly during times of big storms try and do it during daylight hours.  You cannot beat having a visual on the weather.  On the flip side if it is just low visibility with no associated convective activity I prefer nighttime.  The approach lights are easier to pick up in the dark. 

 A lot of times you just make the best call you can.  Coming back from Nashville a few months ago I deviated south to avoid weather.  Should have gone north.  Those guys who went north were able to proceed direct on course in about 20 minutes.  It looked like I was going to end up in Mexico!  The line kept growing west and moving south.

Don’t be afraid to turn around or add a fuel stop.  If you are on the ground wait a few hours, the  weather WILL change.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 01:07:24 pm by Steve binnette »

donv

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Re: Maneuvering Speed
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2020, 02:22:29 pm »
Coming back from California yesterday, up the spine of the Sierras, it was pretty bumpy at FL280. I came down to 260, and it was much, much better (all clear air). As I went north, the airlines were all coming down to FL260 to avoid the bumps in the thirties as well. The upper twenties are often a pretty good place to be.