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Author Topic: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine  (Read 8273 times)

John Wood

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2020, 06:53:44 pm »
I recently met the head of maintenance at a Commander shop and he said figure $50-60K per year to maintain a turbine model.  Not sure what he meant by this and wonder what is included.

donv

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2020, 09:46:43 pm »
I can tell you $50-60k is high in a normal year. A year with gear overhaul and props? Sure. But not most years.

And my airplane is exclusively maintained by a Twin Commander service center.

John Wood

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2020, 11:17:07 pm »
Glad to hear that, our Commander was also maintained at factory service centers.

SKYFLYER

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2020, 07:45:20 am »
Heads of maintenance shops tend to see only the Commanders with issues for the most part... so they reflect that onto the fleet in many ways.

I have never had anywhere near that much for just routine annual use.  Of course as Don pointed out the gear or prop years will be expensive as will hots or overhauls.

John Wood

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2020, 01:16:03 pm »
Allow me to add a footnote to our $1,200 per hour wet charge for the Phenom 100.  Our “power-by-the-hour” hourly payment to Pratt & Whitney just paid parts and labor for two hot section inspections and will pay for engine overhauls.  The payment to Embraer covers parts cost for repair (tires for instance) and inspections.  When you have three partners flying with different usage, this is the fair way to do it.

Obviously you can “fly” an aircraft much less expensively and face maintenance expenses as they come along.  Also as a wise aviator once said, “You can defer maintenance on your airplane and live with the problems.  These problems will be discovered during pre-purchase inspection when you sell the plane.  As the seller, you will pay to have these fixed so the buyer can enjoy a fine aircraft.”

I don’t think many operators have Garrett’s on engine programs.  Ours were quite reliable and we had one hot section inspection done by Winner Aviation in Youngstown.

donv

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2020, 04:52:43 pm »
The thing about engine programs is, first, they usually have a minimum annual number of flight hours. So beware.

But second, and more importantly, you can look at engines differently when they are not on a program. When they are not on a program, you aren't spending anything per hour and then you have a big expense all at once. However, you have alternatives. You can sell the airplane and buy a different one. You can buy used engines. You can rent engines.

And the effect of engine times on airframe value isn't at all linear-- the last 2-300 hours until overhaul are basically "free" since they have no effect on airframe value. In other words, an airplane with 300 hours left to overhaul is going to sell for the same price as one with 25 hours left.

schrambow

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2020, 10:56:58 pm »
We have talked about engine programs a year or two ago on the forum somewhere,  we are on MSP yet for our -5's 840.  They raised it to $234 per engine, it was $227 i think in early 2019.  Minimum of 75 hours per year.  I think they raise it 3% each year perhaps, but we are new to this. As others have stated, it is kind of throwing money away, especially if you have a nice engines. We are 200 to 300 hours away from our first hot inspection, so we are holding out until then i would guess.

John Wood

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2020, 11:21:10 pm »
It all depends on the state of the aircraft.  If it is nearing end of life due to airframe or engine overhaul issues, that's another story.

If you have an aircraft on an engine program and ever intend to sell it, the program has substantial value.  Your buyer has no idea whether you have good or bad engines but will assume the benefit of a transferable insurance policy.  And yes, insurance companies make a profit on their policies. 

For your interest, engine programs for the Phenom do not cover foreign object damage (FOD)... do not ingest a sea shell dropped by a seagull in the Caribbean or a rock kicked up on the taxiway.

JMA

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2020, 03:41:27 pm »
Good stuff John, glad the phenom is working out for you.  Did you like the working with Winner?  We have been with them since the start with our 980.

John Wood

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2020, 11:14:23 pm »
Rob Butler of Winner Aviation, now perhaps part-time or retired, was superb.  Winner did fine work, with one mildly humorous exception.  They performed a hot section inspection on our right-side Dash-Ten.  I flew out via airlines to pick up the airplane and as prescribed took a mechanic up with me for the post-maintenance NTS system test.

All went well and I headed back to Boston.  About five minutes away from landing the right engine torque began to surge back-and-forth.  I reduced power and landed without incident.  However when I loosened the right side oil cap the dipstick was completely dry..  I was sure I had destroyed the engine and called our old Commander hand, Dan Gray at Northeast Air in Portland, Maine.  He said, no the engine should be all right.  He said on running out of oil, the propeller will feather before the Garrett is damaged.

I called Ron and Winner had two mechanics and a van in Boston the next day.  There are four long bolts holding the rear bearing cover in place, one was bent during re-assembly and the oil slowly leaked out through the exhaust.  We operated the aircraft for years afterward with no issues.

Ron Butler was very nice in giving me scrap TPE-331 rotating components which I combined with helicopter parts to make a weather vane for the backyard.  The compressor stages became available when a Canadian crew discovered you should remove the red foam plug before starting the engine.


donv

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2020, 01:45:42 pm »
Northeast Air maintained my airplane for many years, up until 2000 for the original owner.

They were a service center for a while, weren't they?

John Wood

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2020, 02:36:36 pm »
Northeast Air maintained our Commander too.  As I remember Twin Commander got greedy, wanted service centers to stock up on spares inventory, Northeast Air declined, and service center status was pulled.

SoCalDan

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2020, 09:35:22 am »
The compressor stages became available when a Canadian crew discovered you should remove the red foam plug before starting the engine.

That's a difficult lesson about vigilance and habit patterns that aviators keep having to learn again. One of my fellow pilots at a former employer killed off a Garrett on his Metroliner that way. And a very well known astronaut destroyed a J-85 on his T-38 when he and his Dynacorp crew chief neglected to detect the presence of a battery sitting in the intake during an early morning Ellington departure.

Vigilance always.
"The way I see it you can either work for a living or fly. Me? I'd rather fly." -Len Morgan

donv

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2020, 11:54:19 am »
It's easy to make a mistake, and as Ernie Gann wrote, "In this business, we play for keeps."

My daughter is a private pilot, and I recently finished her tailwheel endorsement. Since she needed to build a little time in the Citabria for insurance (she's all insured and flying it herself now), we did a little cross country. After buying fuel at the self-serve in Tillamook, we were in a rush to get the airplane out of the way for an EMS helicopter who also needed fuel. All good, until we got home and realized we left a fuel cap in Tillamook, and streamed A LOT of fuel out the open filler. It could have been much worse.

The good news, as I'm sure we all know, is that Turbo Commanders have an anti-siphon valve! Not so on the Citabria.

schrambow

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Re: The Twin Commander as a Traveling Machine
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2020, 10:41:10 am »
15 years ago, i had a copilot check the fuel caps on the 680FLP for me after our regular line guy filled up our plane.  The chain was no longer hooked up to the caps on this plane.  We took off and landed in Indiana without a fuel cap. I felt sick to my stomach as i wondered where this fuel cap was, somewhere between central Wisconsin through central Indiana i thought, and i just prayed it didn't hit anyone or any vehicle/building on the ground.
Well about a year ago, the grass cutting crew and airport manager at Fond du lac found this beat up fuel cap while cutting grass around the airport one evening.  The cap popped off probably right a lift off or very shortly thereafter thank god.  These caps back then were not cheap either if i remember, i am sure they have not gone down in price either in the last 15 years.
Moral of the story:  Trust no one when it comes to checking fuel caps, i don't care if you are at service centers since Commander started making these airplanes.  I have seen very experienced and knowledgeable individuals make this mistake and it only takes a few seconds to check it and once you get in a routine of it at every fuel stop and home base it's becomes normal to micromanage this task.