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Author Topic: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin  (Read 45254 times)

Kzastrow1

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690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« on: September 28, 2021, 05:07:51 pm »

https://www.wsaw.com/2021/09/28/faa-3-board-small-airplane-when-it-crashed-near-eagle-river/

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N690LS/history/20210928/1350Z/KRHI/L%2045.92471%20-89.02386

Flight track does not look good. Stalled in the low teens? I landed about 30 miles away at the time of this crash. Beautiful day today. CAVU
« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 05:40:18 pm by Kzastrow1 »

donv

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2021, 05:28:29 pm »
Neither of those links work-- can you give any more information?

Kzastrow1

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2021, 05:39:01 pm »
Sorry.   N690LS   Links should work now




« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 05:41:05 pm by Kzastrow1 »

donv

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2021, 05:43:40 pm »
Looks like it was some sort of aerial survey or mapping operator?

Kzastrow1

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2021, 05:50:34 pm »
Owned by Surdex

Surdex currently owns and operates ten aircraft for imagery and LiDAR acquisition out of our flight center at the Spirit of St. Louis Airport. Employing full-time A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) personnel to perform FAA-certified inspection, maintenance, and repair, omits costly and time-consuming reliance on third-parties.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 06:13:51 pm by Kzastrow1 »

Steve binnette

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2021, 07:06:11 pm »
Very odd set of circumstances.  I am not sure what to make of it?

donv

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2021, 12:24:43 pm »
I will be interested in seeing what the NTSB says. I see it's now blocked from FlightAware, but I believe they were climbing through 12,000 or something, and then more or less straight down?

JMA

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2021, 02:40:21 pm »
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/09/rockwell-690b-turbo-commander-n690ls.html

Lots of opinions going around... bird strike, wing fold, pilot health emergency, prop loss.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-M8lMX38Vs
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 02:47:05 pm by JMA »

donv

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2021, 05:32:19 pm »
There is a comment on KathrynsReport (often a fairly dubious source) which indicates this was a training flight. If so, it would fit the pattern of other Commander training flight accidents.

Be very careful with stall recovery training! I’ve seen the stall warning fail more than once, so you can end up in a full stall inadvertently.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 08:12:27 pm by donv »

appleseed

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donv

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2021, 05:07:00 pm »
Stall/spin. Whether they were intentionally doing slow flight work / stalls is unknown, but that seems to be the end result. Very possible that they brought the power back after levelling off, in order to set up the profile for their operation, got distracted, and didn't bring the power back up in time.

If the stall warning didn't work, which is common, they could have been in a stall/spin situation before they even figured out what was going on.

Quote from: NTSB

According to air traffic control, a “mayday, mayday, mayday...we’re in a spin” transmission was broadcast. The airplane was not under air traffic control during the flight or at the time of the accident.


Steve binnette

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2021, 10:54:31 pm »
This might be a dumb question but why did they not recover from the spin.  From 15000 ft you should have plenty of time to recover?

donv

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2021, 11:27:23 pm »
Well, there have been at least 3 Turbo Commander accidents in the last few years where they were on a training flight, and went straight in from altitudes like that. So my takeaway is that no, if you get the airplane into a spin, you can't recover no matter how much altitude you have.

I'm attaching two, and I believe there was at least one more but I couldn't find it in a quick search.


aholmes100

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2021, 11:40:22 pm »
From Donv's comments and the reports he linked I guess a TC is not recoverable from a stall spin even with plenty of Altitude. Would love to get Bruce Byerly's take on it or someone that offer training in a TC. I personally still don't understand what caused this accident.

Just thinking back now. When I got my 690B. I did a full stall at about 10K with Scott Welch. According to this discussion is that something not recommended in a 690B. At the first sign of stall horn - Pitch down add power recover would that be the right maneuver. Just wondering what some folk like Donv and others that have owned a TC feel. I am sure most folk that have owned a TC for years have gone through a few recurrent flight trainings over the years. What was the instructors take on this issue of a stall/spin in a TC.

I know when I did my training in a Twin Baron. Recover immediately on stall horn going off. I only have a 110 or so hrs in a TC and 650 hrs total so still trying to learn as much as I can.

donv

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Re: 690B crash in northern Wisconsin
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2021, 12:04:12 am »
I have done full stalls in Commanders before. I had to do one a couple of years ago because we reskinned the horizontal stab, and it was a requirement.

What I have seen is that often a wing drops. If you respond promptly and correctly (i.e. lower the nose and use rudder to lift the wing), no problems. If you respond incorrectly (which, so far, I have never done or seen), I think that is where things could go wrong in a hurry.

Personally, for training purposes, I would recover at the stall horn, and you will be fine.

Where it can get really dicey is if the stall horn doesn't go off-- something I have seen more than once. There are a couple of reasons why the stall horn might not work. The big, obvious one is if the heat burned it up. On the Jetprops, and I think most 690s the stall warning heat is on the R PITOT switch. The AFM, for the 980 at least, says not to turn the R PITOT on until after takeoff.

Specifically, in the ice and rain section of the 980 AFM, it says :

"CAUTION

To prevent damage to the Stall Warn Heater on airplanes S/N 95000 thru 95040, do not operate R PITOT heat for longer than 10 to 15 seconds when the airplane is on the ground."

Secondly, if you look at where the stall vane is and where the fuel cap is, it's not hard to imagine an inattentive line service tech inadvertently dragging the fuel hose over it.

Now, combine a non-working stall warning with either a training situation or simply diverted attention with the power levers back in flight idle, throw in maybe a little bit of misrigging so the engines aren't perfectly in synch, and you could end up in a bad spot.

One really, really nice thing about the S-Tec 3100 is the underspeed protection that it offers. It is purely based off of indicated airspeed, and it gives you a verbal warning and, if the autopilot is engaged, will lower the nose on it's own.