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Author Topic: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?  (Read 35686 times)

JimC

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Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« on: May 30, 2016, 08:56:04 am »
This can all be blamed on Adam. I was following his posts on the SOPA board (C337) long ago as I went down a similar decision path towards twin ownership. Two roads diverged, and he got into his early piston commander, and I ended up in a late model Cessna 340. But even though I didn't get into the same plane, I kept reading his posts on various boards - as we all know, they're massively entertaining reads. I'd never heard of a Turbo Commander, but his fawning over the type lead me to read about it, and...well....here I am. So it's all his fault.

So onto my "what-a-very-nice-problem-to-have" dilemma. Over the past two years, I've managed to schedule maintenance between flights and enjoyed a decent dispatch rate in my 340. I've dumped a ton of money into it between maintenance and a complete panel upgrade. A big reason for that was I didn't really expect to have this opportunity to upgrade, and I assumed I'd keep the 340 for 20 years, so I chase every. single. squawk. But over the last 2 months, that perfect dance between maintenance and flying disintegrated, and I've been effectively grounded for 6 weeks. I've managed to convince myself that's it's piston problems - if I didn't have to touch the damn engines to constantly fiddle with them (50 hour oil change, 50 hour exhaust AD, etc) I'd be in the air more and on the ground less. I fly about 250 hours a year - this year will be less with the grounding.

Work is going well, and buying a top-of-the line 980 or 1000 is a possibility in the next two years. But that's at least two years away, and I've just lost 6 weeks of air time chasing piston issues in my 340. A buddy of mine recently upgraded from a Cessna 421 to a 441 and raves about how he hasn't touched the -10 engines since he made the switch and hasn't scrubbed a flight since (his dispatch rate was miserable in his *very* nice 421.)

What I could do is get into a 690A (or maybe 690B if I'm lucky) this summer or fall. The thought would be to fly it for two years (about 250 hrs/year, probably down to 200 with the faster plane) and then trade it in on the nicer plane with the -10 engines. If I never do manage to build the cash pile high enough, I still have a decent, capable turbo twin. I *think* the operating costs will be about the same or close enough. I generally think they're higher on turbines - I don't buy into the "it's a wash with cheaper fuel" theory - but I'm already at the very high end of the range on my 340. One cost that will definitely go up is about $1200/month for a hangar - I'm pretty sure I can't fit a commander into my current hangar. Although I've very mechanically capable (I've built an experimental) I generally don't have the time to wrench on my own plane. I do quite a bit to learn about my systems and point the A&Ps in the right direction, but I leave the work to them.

What's important to me:
Reliability

What's not:
Interior, paint

What I'll have trouble *not* spending money on:
A G600/GTN750 upgrade

Questions:
Do you think the 690A/Bs will hold value reasonably well? If I do nothing but maintenance, can I get back 90% of my purchase price after another 400hrs of flying?
Will my dispatch rate in a "cheaper" plane (my threshold is a plane that's currently flying and in annual) be as high as I expect it to be?
Will lack of local knowledge kill my dispatch rate? A significant part of my most recent grounding is due to lack of local type-specific knowledge about my 340's engines.
What's the possibility that unexpected maintenance puts a big hole in the cash pile and delays the acquisition of the spiffy 695?

OK, start the discussion - spend someone else's money!
500B, B200

Adam Frisch

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2016, 11:05:18 am »
I'm sorry JimC I led you up this garden path! Now we can get ruined together!  ;D

I don't have a good answer for you as I don't have direct experience with any of those models. But it seems like Commanders, if they've been kept after, retain a lot of their value. They have a very good aftermarket and customer base. Those who know, know. And they keep returning. A lot of the bargain priced ones out there need big AD's done or engines or spars etc, but the nice ones keep a decent value. I could be wrong, but they seem even to have appreciated in the last 6 months slightly. I don't see many 690's below the half million mark, and that was pretty standard a couple of years ago.

I dream about the Jetprops too. After seeing Steve Binnette's wonderful 980 the other day, I think that's the model I'd like to get eventually. A 900/1000 is also an interesting model with the higher 6.7psi cabin. It's nice to be able to get to FL350, but I'm not sure it would be worth the premium for me personally. And the cabin and baggage space is better on the 840/980.

Now, perhaps there's a halfway house? A plane that might fit most of your future needs and still come in below a 980. Morris is just about to start SB241 on a 690B that has low time -10's and the permanent spar. It's been sitting for quite some time and hasn't flown a lot in the last 5 years. Owner moved east, divorced, lost interest. It's got an older Meggitt panel, you can smell a bit of moisture/mold in cabin etc, but at $575K it could be a pretty good value. I thought about it myself for me, but I just really like to not have to finance planes. The 680V is paid for. Call and see what he says if you're interested. With the aux fuel tanks, it has the same speed, same range and can go as high as any of the later Jetprops. And has shorter wingspan. Yeah, the aux drop tanks are not the prettiest things out there, should you add them, but they kind of get the job done.

But I can certainly see the draw with a Jetprop. That sleek wing, all the internal fuel etc. They're fabulous and the best TC's they built.

Keep us informed on how it goes!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 11:08:08 am by Adam Frisch »
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

JimC

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2016, 11:38:23 am »
I'll wait to call him until I'm closer to a decision. At this point, I've never stepped foot in any Commander, so I'm at least two or three months out from real shopping...but if I do go for it this summer, this one could be in the running. When I said I don't care about the paint, I really meant it. This would be perfect - the paint seems to be high quality and doing a good job of protecting the airframe, but most people won't want it. My kind of orphan!

PS - If any Commanders are crossing the pond anytime soon, let me know. I would love to stop by and see you at KBTV - a typical stop for planes going either direction.
500B, B200

donv

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2016, 11:58:25 am »
A 690A or 690B (basically the same thing, in my opinion) is a great airplane. I have a lot of time in them.

An 840 (690C) is really the result of a bunch of discussions with 690 owners about what they liked and didn't like, along with a redesigned wing to eliminate a bunch of issues.

So, the bottom line is that an 840 will cost you less in maintenance over time (because of fewer recurring service bulletins, and less likelihood of future ones), but a 690 will cost you less up front. Watch out for the maintenance status of cheap 690s, although the one Adam mentions might be a nice compromise.

In the end, one reason I went with a Jetprop was that it would cost less in maintenance, and I know I will get the difference in upfront cost back when I go to sell it. So, that's not really a permanent expense, if that makes sense.

JimC

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2016, 01:49:28 pm »
There's no doubt an 840-10, 980 or 1000 is the long term goal. The question is what do I do for flying over the next 2-3 years. I understand the thought that the upfront cost "isn't permanent" but I have to balance that against the fact that I will (hopefully) keep this plane for 20 years and then it will be a 55-year old orphan instead of a 35-year old orphan. The same thought has gone into my 340 - I'm not expecting to get a lot out of it, unless I sell it soon (<5 years.)

There are several cheap (sub $200K) 690A/Bs I'm not even bothering to call about. I have time for a basket case, but I don't believe it will be a good deal in the long run. If I could get a decent 690A/B for $300-400K, I'd probably jump on it right away. I'm honestly not expecting to find what I want in that range and think it will be $500K or more (like the dolphin Adam pointed out.)

Followup question: is my short-term budget right? So many of the planes listed are "CALL FOR PRICE" that I'm taking a stab based on what I do see listed. I'm assuming that you can't get a ready-to-fly 690B for under $400K. I don't mean legal to fly, I mean ready to fly - pressurization working all the way to 5.2psi, no safety squawks, no leaking bladders, known ice working, radar working, windows you can see through, SB241 complete, etc. - something you'd put your family in while shooting an approach in a snowstorm at night.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 02:01:41 pm by JimC »
500B, B200

Adam Frisch

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2016, 02:21:00 pm »
You can get one for that, but it'll probably be high time and have engines closer to TBO. A 690A with about same times on engine, but 700hr to HSI, I know of is for sale for $415K, which will be cheaper than the sub-$200K ones you need to do everything to. But like you said, if you're longterm goal is a Jetprop, I would hold off for that if that's your forever plane.

Would a project Jetprop be the solution and keep the 340 for everyday flying until it's done? Won't be cheaper, but at least you can pay as you go. There was a Japanese 980 with run out - 10's for sale just a few months ago. Steve bought his with run outs as well.
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

JimC

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2016, 02:37:38 pm »
A project jetprop isn't the solution - yet. A good chunk of the short-term cash will come from the sale of the 340, so I can't hold both.

It is interesting that you (of all people! ;)) say to hold off until I can get the JetProp. Well, that's exactly what I'm asking, and you've given an answer. But, of course, I don't like it.  :) So can you elaborate a little on your thoughts for holding off?

I'd prefer NOT to pay as I go on a non-flying plane, because my money is making money - unless it's sitting in a project plane. If the plane with run-out engines is flyable, that's a different matter. I'm assuming putting 400 more hours on top of a 5000 hour engine with 5200TBO is an OK thing to do - is this a fair assumption? Can I exceed turbine TBO as part 91 or do I have to follow the factory maintenance rules like KingAirs do?
500B, B200

Adam Frisch

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2016, 03:21:39 pm »
No, I wouldn't hold off, but don't do like me! I lose money on every plane I touch! ;D

As you know, selling and buying airplanes is a bad deal because we can't help but put more things into them than the market wants to pay for. But ultimately, I think it depends on what kind of person you are. I'm very impatient. And I also don't have any savings, but I do earn well. So for me it's always been easier to get in cheap and upgrade as I go for my own money. Downside to that strategy is that plane is always in shop getting something done, and I can't fly as much as I would have if I'd bought a nice one. But then I have to finance, and I really dislike that. Don't even like to finance my cars.

I know how it's going to go - I'll do this 680V up, fly it for a few years and then get the itch to get a Jetprop. I'll lose money when I sell the 680V, then buy a project 980 that needs to spend another 2 years in the shop whilst I earn the money to pay for it. Then finally when it's out of the shop I'll probably lose my medical…  :o ::)

BTW, I know 340's are easier to sell, but it took my Aerostar a year to sell with brand new engines and a killer price. Twin pistons just take forever to sell these days. So if you're serious about selling the 340 and need the cash to fund part of a Commander, I'd put it on the market right now so you're ahead of the game.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 03:25:51 pm by Adam Frisch »
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

Adam Frisch

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2016, 03:35:41 pm »
BTW, JimC. This is conversation I have with myself daily. If I'm smart, I spend the money on this plane I have now and make it into the forever plane. It's only 30-50kts slower than a Jetprop. Sure, it can't fly as high, but only about 3000ft lower. So, is 30-50kts in speed and 3000ft more altitude worth another $500K, is what I ask myself? On paper, no. In reality…maybe? The 680V needs no inspections, has cheap systems, and has -1 engines that are fuel efficient and relatively easy on the wallet. The sensible thing to do would be to stick with this one. We'll see how that works out... ;)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 03:44:26 pm by Adam Frisch »
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

donv

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2016, 09:45:10 pm »
Jim, I think a high time -5 690A would fill the bill very nicely, and should be obtainable in your price range.

ghancock

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2016, 10:49:06 am »
No Adam,  Stop thinking logically.  I am waiting for your 2 year mark so I can buy your plane for cheap and make it my forever plane.  Now you're messing up my game.  NO MORE LOGIC!!

Glenn
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You can't win an argument with an ignorant person,  they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

donv

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2016, 01:40:39 pm »
Also, while with turbines you can't go over TBO or hot section, there are some interesting things you can do if you want to be creative. For example, you can buy a set of mid-time 331s for less than the cost of an overhaul, I think. Or, you can even rent engines by the hour.

JimC

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2016, 02:04:33 pm »
I lose money on every plane I touch! ;D
We all do!

For those of you who've moved from turbo piston to turbine, did your dispatch rate go up significantly? At the end of the day, that's what I'm really looking for.
500B, B200

Adam Frisch

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2016, 03:51:13 pm »
Also, while with turbines you can't go over TBO or hot section, there are some interesting things you can do if you want to be creative. For example, you can buy a set of mid-time 331s for less than the cost of an overhaul, I think. Or, you can even rent engines by the hour.

Don, that's not my understanding. Agreed that hot sections must be complied with, but you are legal to run engine over TBO as long as you do the HSI. All time/cycle limited parts must be replaced, but an overhaul is not mandatory part 91. Part 91 regulations do not address overhaul requirements only inspection requirements, and the overhauls are "recommended" not mandatory.

There's a long thread about it over at Beech Talk if you're a member.
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

SKYFLYER

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