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Author Topic: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?  (Read 38315 times)

donv

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2016, 04:42:01 pm »
I'm not a member of BeechTalk, nor do I plan to become one. I'd rather see more conversations over here!

Armchair experts are one thing, but try and get a reputable shop to sign off an inspection on an over TBO engine. I went through this with my engines (long story, short summary is that they didn't have a proper sign off for the TBO extension from 3600 hours to 5400 hours).

People make lots of claims, until their the ones who are liable if something happens, or if the FAA takes a closer look.

Also, while with turbines you can't go over TBO or hot section, there are some interesting things you can do if you want to be creative. For example, you can buy a set of mid-time 331s for less than the cost of an overhaul, I think. Or, you can even rent engines by the hour.

Don, that's not my understanding. Agreed that hot sections must be complied with, but you are legal to run engine over TBO as long as you do the HSI. All time/cycle limited parts must be replaced, but an overhaul is not mandatory part 91. Part 91 regulations do not address overhaul requirements only inspection requirements, and the overhauls are "recommended" not mandatory.

There's a long thread about it over at Beech Talk if you're a member.

donv

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2016, 04:43:20 pm »
The Flying article linked above is absolutely correct.

If it were not, why did Sierra just spend a bunch of money to certify a TBO extension program for the JT-15 in the Citation, part 91 only? And why would anyone pay Sierra for that program?

donv

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2016, 01:47:42 am »
Specifically, read 91.409(e) and (f). That's where it specifies that turboprops must be maintained under an inspection program. Most people just use the manufacturer's program, although it is possible to get an alternative program approved, with enough effort.

There is a "low utilization" inspection program for Citations, for example, which basically doubles the calendar limits on all the airframe inspections. The guys who got that approved were both lawyers and A&P mechanics. They sell it now, and it's not cheap.

ghancock

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2016, 07:19:05 am »
I'm just a bit curious.  After paying for their program and purchasing the parts required to double your engine life (if that is actually a safe thing to do), how much do you really end up saving?  You say their program is expensive but I would assume the savings must be worth it?

This is something keeping me away from the jet props and not something I really know much about.  It just always seems extremely expensive when an engine runs out of time.

Thanks,


Glenn
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You can't win an argument with an ignorant person,  they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

SKYFLYER

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2016, 10:20:31 am »
Glen there are multiple programs out there offering "brackets" of coverage like auto insurance in a way... for the turbines.  This might explain it better than I can.
https://www.conklindd.com/t-guaranteedenginemaintenanceprograms.aspx

ghancock

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2016, 11:05:00 am »
That link seems to only be talking about aircraft maintenance programs, not the topic this thread seems to be talking about which is that you can go over TBO on turbo props.

Here are a few other questions:  Preface: I know jack about jets:  If the TBO on your Commander is 3500 hours, how much does it cost to get you going again?  If you did it new.  Versus, how much if you extended the TBO to 5000 or whatever.  What are the average TBO on these engines?

I'm just trying to learn more about the expenses associated with the jets versus piston engines.

Thanks,

Glenn
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You can't win an argument with an ignorant person,  they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

SKYFLYER

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2016, 12:13:45 pm »
That was the point of the article referenced... some of the plans extend the HOT SECTION TIMES and or TBO... BUT they all cost X number of dollars per hour.  And of course not all turbines (-5 or -10) will be the same price per hour and the actual hours of each turbine at the time you enroll the engine or engines will affect that price as well. NO turbine engine can legally exceed the manufacture's hour limits for HS or TBO if maintained on the manufacture's schedule... UNLESS enrolled in an approved program.  The single and only advantage I have found (other than the extended times) is that when hots or overhaul comes it is 100% paid for... NO lurking problems or hidden parts needing to be replaced as that is all included... some even offer loaner or rental engines while the overhaul is in progress. 
So it comes down to if you have a super squeaky clean no issue overhaul... than you may have paid a bit more using the "plan" than had you just used a simple engine reserve amount per hour for the overhaul.
BUT THERE IS NO WAY I AM CURRENTLY AWARE OF TO LEGALLY EXCEED THE MANUFACTURE'S TBO OR CYCLE LIMITS IF YOU ARE USING THE MANUFACTURE'S MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE ON A TURBINE ENGINE.
Unlike a piston engine where most all times are "suggested" and not etched in stone.(part 91)
If I am in error on this someone on the board can correct it.
By the way the new "H" series turbine engines from GE do not have any hot section inspections, just TBO and or cycles.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 12:16:33 pm by SKYFLYER »

Adam Frisch

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2016, 12:47:17 pm »
These engine programs are designed to protect the value, resale value and give piece of mind. They work exactly like insurance or protection money. But they're often not economically the most advantageous if you have the cash. In the case of Williams FJ44 series, (who are the only ones who are allowed to overhaul the engines, which guarantees high prices) for instance, you pay them a pretty hefty hourly cost, they inspect it once in awhile and as if by magic, they can extend the TBO. Nothing has been done to engine whatsoever, but since is now part of the program, they can extend at will. Basically, if you're on the program, they will extend the TBO as much as they can to delay the cost of overhauling it, but if you're not, there is no extension to be had. Then you need to overhaul right on the dot. Clever, isn't it?

On TPE's there are also service plans, one is from Propulsion International, that takes the engine 5400hr to 7000hr TBO (again nothing needs to be done to engine, it's just paperwork, so in reality the engine could run to 7000hrs no problem). Don't know the cost of that, or if you have to join from new, but it's there. But we're lucky in that TPE's are reasonably easy and cheap to service. At $250K for an overhaul, give or take, they're much cheaper than any PT6 out there. And you can also get a halftime or higher time exchange engine if you need to have less capital outlay. Plan on paying about $30-50/hr for an exchange engine. Which is, compared to may pistons these days, a very good deal.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 12:49:58 pm by Adam Frisch »
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

donv

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2016, 01:09:18 pm »
Let's not confuse the issue here. There are two sorts of maintenance "programs:"

1) The type required by FAR. This is basically a list of times (both by flight time and in some cases calendar time) for when various components need to be inspected. This is regulatory-- see the FAR I mentioned above.

2) Engine maintenance programs. These are basically a type of insurance product offered in some cases by the engine manufacturer and in some cases by third parties. They let you pay for your overhaul expenses by the hour, and have nothing to do with regulations. These are completely optional.

Adam Frisch

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2016, 02:21:53 pm »

BUT THERE IS NO WAY I AM CURRENTLY AWARE OF TO LEGALLY EXCEED THE MANUFACTURE'S TBO OR CYCLE LIMITS IF YOU ARE USING THE MANUFACTURE'S MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE ON A TURBINE ENGINE.


Donv might be correct that it will be hard to find a mechanic to sign off on it, because there's a lot of confusion in this area. But it's in the wording. Overhaul is not inspection. Inspection is not overhaul. Mandatory overhauls is an SB, not an AD. You can ignore SB's as part 91. However, inspections and cycles must be followed.

Let's look at 91.409.

(e) Large airplanes (to which part 125 is not applicable), turbojet multiengine airplanes, turbopropeller-powered multiengine airplanes, and turbine-powered rotorcraft. No person may operate a large airplane, turbojet multiengine airplane, turbopropeller-powered multiengine airplane, or turbine-powered rotorcraft unless the replacement times for life-limited parts specified in the aircraft specifications, type data sheets, or other documents approved by the Administrator are complied with and the airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft, including the airframe, engines, propellers, rotors, appliances, survival equipment, and emergency equipment, is inspected in accordance with an inspection program selected under the provisions of paragraph (f) of this section, except that, the owner or operator of a turbine-powered rotorcraft may elect to use the inspection provisions of § 91.409(a), (b), (c), or (d) in lieu of an inspection option of § 91.409(f).

This is the catch-all. However, the first word is Large and large means above 12500lbs as per FAA definition. However, after reading carefully, the comma between the subsequent wording makes it clear it applies to Large as well as all the following. Which means all twin engine turboprops in our case. But hang on, it's not over yet...

Part (f)

(f) Selection of inspection program under paragraph (e) of this section. The registered owner or operator of each airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft described in paragraph (e) of this section must select, identify in the aircraft maintenance records, and use one of the following programs for the inspection of the aircraft:

Doesn't apply to part 91.

(1) A continuous airworthiness inspection program that is part of a continuous airworthiness maintenance program currently in use by a person holding an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate issued under part 121 or 135 of this chapter and operating that make and model aircraft under part 121 of this chapter or operating that make and model under part 135 of this chapter and maintaining it under § 135.411(a)(2) of this chapter.

Doesn't apply to part 91.

(2) An approved aircraft inspection program approved under § 135.419 of this chapter and currently in use by a person holding an operating certificate issued under part 135 of this chapter.

Doesn't apply to part 91.

(3) A current inspection program recommended by the manufacturer.

Does apply.

(4) Any other inspection program established by the registered owner or operator of that airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft and approved by the Administrator under paragraph (g) of this section. However, the Administrator may require revision of this inspection program in accordance with the provisions of § 91.415.

Could apply if you were willing to write your own inspection program and have it approved by FSDO. But unlikely, which leaves 3. So, it's clear that an inspection program or maintenance manual must be followed, either the manufacturers recommended one (most likely their own) or one you've made up yourself and had approved. Now, let's read 43.13 and the FAA interoperation of it:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8620_2A.pdf

Applicability.
a. Section 43.13(a) states, in part, “Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in:
1) The current manufacturer’s maintenance manual or;
2) Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or;
3) Other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator.”
b. The language of § 43.13(a) clearly provides a person with three permissible options when performing maintenance, alterations, or preventive maintenance on a product. Section 43.13(a) does not provide an order of precedence for these three options. Further, although § 43.13(a) does not specifically address SB’s or SL’s, an OEM may legitimately incorporate an SB or SL into one of its maintenance manuals by reference. If it does so, the data specified, and the method, technique, or practice contained therein, may be acceptable to the Administrator. However, unless any method, technique, or practice prescribed by an OEM in any of its documents is specifically mandated by a regulatory document, such as Airworthiness Directive (AD), or specific regulatory language such as that in § 43.15(b); those methods, techniques, or practices are not mandatory.


As you can see, Other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, not just the maintenance manual. So that contradicts or amends 91.409. But let's read on through the interpretation:


7. TCDS. Consistent with 14 CFR, a TCDS is part of a product’s type certificate (TC). A TCDS is a summary of the product’s type design. It is used primarily by authorized persons during initial or recurrent issuance of a Standard Airworthiness Certificate. It is neither a regulation, a maintenance requirements document, or a flight manual document. As such, for aircraft holding a valid and current airworthiness certificate, a TCDS should not be used as a sole source to determine what maintenance is required or what the flight operations requirements are. Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any language on the TCDS mandatory. For example, there is a mention of “operating limitations” on most TCDS. The corresponding rule for “operating limitations” is 14 CFR § 91.9(a) which states, “Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.” Without § 91.9, the TCDS requirement to comply with operating limitations would not be enforceable.

Aha, here we reach deeper: Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any language on the TCDS mandatory. Which means that the MM based on the engine TCDS is simply not enforceable and only a recommendation. More clarification:

8. TCDS Notes. TCDS notes are intended primarily to provide information on the various requirements for issuing an airworthiness certificate as well as the type and location of various technical documents used to operate and maintain the product. Some OEM’s have placed mandatory language such as “shall,” “must,” and “will” on their TCDS that imply that compliance with TCDS notes is mandatory. However, in the absence of regulatory language, or an AD that makes such TCDS notes mandatory, compliance with such notes is not mandatory. It would mean that FAA regulations effectively authorize OEMs to issue “substantive rules,” i.e., it would enable an OEM to impose legal requirements on the public that differ from the 14 CFR requirements. This would be objectionable for two reasons. First, the FAA does not have the authority to delegate its rulemaking authority to an OEM. Second, “substantive rules” can be adopted only in accordance with the notice and comment procedures of the Administrative Procedures Act (APA), which does not apply to an OEM.

The summary: Some OEM’s have placed mandatory language such as “shall,” “must,” and “will” on their TCDS that imply that compliance with TCDS notes is mandatory. However, in the absence of regulatory language, or an AD that makes such TCDS notes mandatory, compliance with such notes is not mandatory.

So it is clear, that in general, TBO is not enforceable for part 91, not for piston, nor for turbines. However, this info is based on the long thread about PT6's and there could be other regulatory amendments for TPE331's that make them mandatory that I'm not aware of. For instance, if overhaul times were somehow part of the aircraft TC, or in some other way inserted in a FAR or way that make them regulatory for this particular type. I don't have access to the TCDS for the TPE331, nor have I been able to find anything that suggest that anything is mandatory, but this would need an interpretation from a FSDO or someone smarter than me.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 02:28:01 pm by Adam Frisch »
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

donv

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2016, 02:30:17 pm »
Read 91.409 (e) again.

It says that, for turbopropeller aircraft, "No person may operate a large airplane, turbojet multiengine airplane, turbopropeller-powered multiengine airplane, or turbine-powered rotorcraft unless the replacement times for life-limited parts specified in the aircraft specifications, type data sheets, or other documents approved by the Administrator are complied with..."

What is unclear about that?

I should add that I don't know much about PT6s, but I am pretty sure there are life extension programs for those engines. There are for 331s as well, but the extension was to 5400 hours, and most of them already have that.

Adam Frisch

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2016, 02:32:38 pm »
I'm not disagreeing with you on that, Donv. Time and life limited parts, inspections must be complied with. Overhauls not. Again, FAA's own interpretation:

Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any language on the TCDS mandatory. Some OEM’s have placed mandatory language such as “shall,” “must,” and “will” on their TCDS that imply that compliance with TCDS notes is mandatory. However, in the absence of regulatory language, or an AD that makes such TCDS notes mandatory, compliance with such notes is not mandatory.

That clarification trumps the regulation 91.409 (e).
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 02:36:36 pm by Adam Frisch »
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

donv

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2016, 02:41:32 pm »
A bit of googling shows that, for the PT6, there is a life extension program called "MORE"-- just like the Sierra life extension program I mentioned above, for the JT-15s on the Citations.

Read this FAQ, and you can go back to BeechTalk well armed with facts:

http://www.morecompany.net/faqs/

Or, better yet, stay away from BeechTalk and stick around here! We have cookies.

As far as I know, there is no comparable life extension program for the TPE-331.

Adam Frisch

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2016, 02:50:36 pm »
This is something that needs an FAA interpretation specifically for the TPE. I know tons of King Air's that fly well past TBO with the FAA's blessing, even though MORE program says it can't be done legally. They're of course interested in selling you their program for money, so I'm not too surprised that's how they want to interpret the regulations...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 02:54:17 pm by Adam Frisch »
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

donv

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Re: Spend someone else's money - 690B vs 690C or better?
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2016, 03:51:42 pm »
I'm not convinced. There are certainly King Air guys on MORE who are flying past TBO. I'm sure there are other King Air guys who are simply doing it illegally. There is probably another, larger, group who claim to be doing it on the internet but aren't actually doing it.

There may be a few who are doing it based on a "letter from the FSDO" although most likely that letter is either an approved alternative maintenance program (basically what MORE does, but on a one-off basis) or some sort of time extension. Essentially, MORE is a "letter from the FSDO" as well.

Again, it's not a matter of interpretation. If you want to get an alternative maintenance program set up with the FAA, you can probably do so-- with enough time and money invested into it.

I think overhauls on PT6s are so expensive that it justifies spending the time and money to get an extension. It's less clear that is the case for the 331.