Group Maintenance Plan

[donv]

This seems sort of interesting:

http://www.propulsioninternational.com/group-maintenance-plan/

I guess a couple of questions come to mind:

1) If it's backed by Honeywell, why is it so much cheaper than MSP?

2) Can anyone get the 3500 hour HSI / 7000 hour overhaul on a Dash 10, or do you have to be in their program? (in other words, is that a general Honeywell program for all 331s?)

I see that they require a 75 hour annual minimum, which isn't too bad... that's always a gotcha on programs like MSP or JSSI, if you're a low utilization operator.

[JimC]

It seems you have to be in the program:

Part 91 Extended Inspection Intervals
* On GMP, Part 91 operators can extend the Hot Section from 2500 to 3500 hours and the Overhaul from 5000 to 7000 hours, adding significant value to the engines and aircraft, as well as lowering the hourly rate.
* This is accomplished by using PI’s interval extension letter from Honeywell, the engine manufacturer, working with your local FAA FSDO to receive the approval.
* On GMP, the 3500/7000 interval goes with the GMP program and the engines. If the aircraft is sold the engines remain on the 3500/7000 interval backed by the letter from the engine manufacturer.
* The required 9 year inspection is covered under GMP.
* Finally, GMP can be transferred to the new owner at aircraft sale including the extended inspection interval.

So my question: How can you get in it? Can I buy a plane with 4500hr -10s and get into the program?

Bruce is listed as a GMP Twin Commander Expert, so I'm sure we'll get a solid answer soon!

[Bruce Byerly]

Guys, I think GMP is fabulous for the right fit and we work with Chad to determine the best option for any given engine status and expected utilization. 

Quick answer to Don:

1) Chad is former Honeywll and has identified a niche to build sales where the native MSP enrollment percentage for 331's was probably a single digit vs. 731's where the majority are on the program.

2) it depends.  But if you are flying 150 hours per year, it probably doesn't matter in 90% of cases. The cost of bulletin compliance required for an old engine is high so there are no hard and fast rules.

Further, 7000 hr TBO approval may depend on your FSDO with or without GMP.

Engines are like people, they are all a little different. if you have -10's, have your engine status handy (-10 only), we can try to make some sense of it. 

[donv]

Bruce, thanks. I have 4-5 years at minimum before it's an issue for me, but it's always good to know what the options are.

[donv]

I was chatting with my brother this weekend about the 3500/7000 hour TBO, and he mentioned that he thought that in addition to the hourly requirement, there was a calendar requirement under this letter. Of course, if you're only flying 100-150 hours per year, that would probably make the whole thing moot.

Anyone know if this is the case?

[Adam Frisch]

Steve's on that program - hope he can fill in if it needs calendar stuff?

[Bruce Byerly]

I?m not sure where Chad stands on this program right now.  There were no significant calendar items as I recall, however, the engines needed to meet the big SB requirements which would likely preclude economic enrollment of an older, higher time, and low SB status engines.

I hope there are some GMP options available, as I do know that Honeywell is no longer enrolling 331?s on new MSP contracts.

[donv]

So GMP isn't going any more, or at least adding new contracts?

Do you know if it's possible to get the 3500/7000 hour letter without GMP, at overhaul?

My engines have never been overhauled, and last hot section was done in 2004, so I know I'm behind on SB status. However at overhaul, that should presumably bring everything up to date.

[Steve binnette]

I am at 330hrs on my engines.  I was required to enroll in propulsion international for 350hrs to get the guaranteed not to exceed engine overhauls.

I wanted my engines overhauled to the higher standards required to qualify for the program.

I have decided to not continue with the program. It really does not pencil out for me.  If I have a problem with my engines then it will have been a mistake.  it just costs to much to insure an engine that is pretty bullet proof.

I was paying something like $45 per engine, and that was the cheapest option leaving me to still have to contribute money at HSI.

My normal insurance covers FOD expenses. If the engine implodes I will pay, I just doubt that will happen.

The one thing I can't value is how it affects resale.  Not sure it would have a huge impact.

[donv]

Steve-- thanks. That's helpful information.

[Bruce Byerly]

So GMP isn't going any more, or at least adding new contracts?

Do you know if it's possible to get the 3500/7000 hour letter without GMP, at overhaul?

My engines have never been overhauled, and last hot section was done in 2004, so I know I'm behind on SB status. However at overhaul, that should presumably bring everything up to date.

Don - I haven?t had a chance to call Chad. But I do know Honeywell is done with 331 MSP so maybe that?s because they have transferred the program to GMP.  With engines that have not been overhauled, like yours, I doubt it will be economical to both comply with the hot section and SB?s in order to get another 2,000 hours. I could be wrong, but in addition to the expensive bulletins, you?d probably have to convince your FSDO to approve which may or not be a slam dunk.

[donv]

I'm in kind of a weird spot. My engines were hot sectioned quite early, early in their life (apparently not unusual in 980s), so when I get to hot section, in about 600 or fewer hours, I'll have a choice to make. If I hot section them, I'll get about 600 hours to overhaul... or I can overhaul them.

So if I could hot section them and have 1800 hours, that would be a no brainer... but for 600, it probably makes sense to just overhaul them.

And no, I don't buy into the "part 91 means you don't need to do overhauls." Not an option for me.

[Steve binnette]

Some things to consider.  The price of overhauls is not going to get cheaper and the much of the value of the airplane is in the engines.

It might cost now but will return a good portion back to you on sale. Or if you keep the plane you will save in getting cheaper overhauls.

Why the early hot section?

[donv]

That's my thinking as well. I figure that if I were to sell it now, it would be priced as if it were run out. If I hot section it and have 600 hours to overhaul, I wouldn't get any of my money back-- any buyer would still price it as run out.

If I overhaul it, though, then it's a premium airplane with fresh engines-- even if I fly it 700 or 800 hours from that point.

The good news is that my next 600 hours (until hot section is due) are basically free, from an engine reserve point of view!

As to why it was hot sectioned early (when it had around 1200 TT, in the 1980s), I understand that the early dash 10s had some issues (possibly what the 511 mod resolved?) which resulted in a bunch of them being hot sectioned early. I don't know specifically what those issues were, however.

[JMA]

Don/Steve- if you don't mind me asking, what is your 980 TT's?
I think we are nearing 9K, CN 95008