Garmin vs Avidyne

[Adam Frisch]

If you'd asked me just a year ago what unit I'd put in my plane come panel upgrade, I would have said a GTN 650 or 750 without a doubt. But now I'm not so sure anymore. Let me draw a parallell, I've had Mac since early 90's. I've been the most loyal Apple customer ever - my computers, may phones, my music, Itunes shopping etc. But as time has moved on and Apple now has a much broader customer base, every OS update from Apple has been progressively worse. Catering only to the lowest common denominator and introducing automation and "ease of use" that only appeals to idiots. For us experienced users, Mac OS X has turned into a kiddie OS made for dunces.

I get the exact same vibe with Garmin today. It's like the planted a Trojan horse. When they were the underdog they introduced all these really great gear and user advantages, but now I just feel like they're slacking off, trying to lock you into their proprietary stuff and cash in. Avidyne, still fighting for market shares, has with latest updates of the 440 and 550 introduced some really fab features. I won't go into all of them here, but with complete artificial horizon and AHRS built in to the unit it now acts as a standby AI. And the compatibility with the iPad with the IFD 100 and included ADS-B in and out, plus the ability to patch in old radar systems into the EX 500 and EX600 makes it's a very competitive system. Garmin doesn't have an AI, nor great ADS-B in and out support. And you can only have radar if you buy their new digital GTX radar for $30K... It feels like Avidyne is trying still, whereas Garmin has become very comfortable now that they're the biggest game in town...

I'm still on the fence - I like Garmin, I like that the product is a little cleaner graphically, but I have to say with Avidyne I get much more for the money at the moment. Resale value of an Avidyne system probably lower, so that's something to also consider. What's the feelings among the board members?

[ghancock]

Adam,

I am shocked that you would not see the value in being able to share ones heart beat with another.

I do agree with you on apples current affairs as I am sitting here attempting to type on a new ipad pro with the apple keyboard that is the biggest piece of crap ever created.

As for Garmin I also think they have lost their way.  They not only fail to go all the way but they also feel that they should rape us over upgrade fees and features instead of creating a loyal customer base.

I have no experience with Avydine and therefore can't offer an opinion on the matter.  I can say at the end of the day the 750 is a nice instrument and serves its purpose.  So I doubt you'll go too wrong with either choice.

Glenn

[donv]

Adam, did you decide what you're going to do for a panel upgrade?

[Adam Frisch]

Went for an Avidyne IFD540 in the end, Don. It's bigger than the 650, but smaller than the 750, which is perfect  for my panel where space is a premium. It also will allow the IFD100 app to work as a second IFD540 on the iPad when they release that update. Thirdly, it can display radar at half the cost of a Garmin - Avidyne threw in the radar upgrade for free and the ART 2000 is only $15K new. Fourthly, with the software upgrade, the IFD also comes a synthetic vision/AI/EFD, which could be useful in an emergency. Fifthly, the QWERTY keyboard makes adding waypoints much easier (although I've heard Garmin will soon release an upgrade that makes them QWERTY too).

[donv]

Are you keeping your existing flight director and HSI?

Also, are you doing two IFD540s, or 1?

[Adam Frisch]

Keeping existing flight director and HSI, as it's actually one of the best ones Collins made. Was over $60K back in the day just for that.  It runs the A/P, so makes installation simpler. I will however add an L3 500 Genesis above it, which has synthetic vision (in a future upgrade), so that will almost be like a glass panel light.

As a second Nav/Com I got the Garmin GNC 255 for space. Thought about a second IFD, but it's just not something I need today with iPad redundancy. That nav/com will run a separate analog backup GS/LOC, just so I can shoot an approach if the IFD fails.

I will have remote Mode S controlled by the IFD. So basically, I will only add 4 physical boxes: IFD, GNC 255, Audiopanel and L3 EFIS. And I can remove tons of old stuff, so that will allow for two panel mounted iPad's as well, making it hopefully rather clean.

[donv]

That sounds like a smart plan!

I would scour trade-a-plane and maybe some avionics shops in the area to see if you can get some spares for your flight director and HSI-- particularly the gyros which drive them (which I believe are remote mounted). I agree that was a very nice system.

[Adam Frisch]

First proposal for layout from the avionics shop. Quite a few things need changing, but I'm specifically wanting your input on the engine instruments.

Initially I liked how the engine instruments were in a line at top of panel like that. Puts them out of the way and free's up for more square units, like iPads etc on the main part of panel. But then I got a bit worried that having them in a line like that, might be illogical? Should they not be paired and sit above each other like they normally do? Could this induce reading mistakes? I'm thinking not, but just want to make sure.

[EricDapp]

I think you need a different airspeed indicator

[SKYFLYER]

Adam are the Ipads going to be Mini's or Air2?  Seems like they will be completely out of your scan and may even be awkward to reach and use effectively. Maybe the larger Ipad Pro mounted with an offset so it is angled towards you would serve you more and allow you to use the "split screen" feature so getting two mini's pretty much. I have always had the engine instruments running vertical to the right of the attitude cluster with the collins radios running across the top until having the Meggitt system installed. As you do not have the radio heads to deal with I think the engine group would go well in your scan across the top of the panel as long as the info was displayed uniformly so you would not have to "study" each gauge to determine or understand what it is telling you.
Just my 1 cent thoughts.

[donv]

I hate to say this, but I really don't like it very much.

First of all, I'd be really sure that panel drawing is dimensionally accurate for your aircraft. I would think yours would be about the same as a 690, and that looks a little bit small to me.

Secondly, I believe your engine gauges are actually much smaller than the ones depicted, so that makes a difference.

On engine gauges, I would put them just to the right of the avionics stack, in a stack just like the factory did. I think that works pretty well, and if you ever fly another Turbo Commander, you'll know where to look.

Are you really only going to have 1 GPS, 1 VOR, and 2 coms? Or is that Garmin unit a Nav/Com? The Garmin 225 is a com only, the 255 is a Nav/Com.  The one in the layout appears to be a 225...

I'd try to find a way to keep the copilot instruments, but I guess that's just me being old school... You might make sure they're not part of the certification, and also how the backup instrument works with the copilot pitot/static system.

On the iPads, personally I don't have a fixed iPad mount. I prefer to have it in my lap, and be able to set it on the floor or the copilot seat, or whatever, when I'm not using it. However, I can understand why you might want a fixed mount. But why two? Is the idea that an iPad is a cheap MFD?

One issue that I can see is that the panel mounted touch screen can be tough to use in turbulence. The Garmin GTN units stick out from the panel, and you can brace your hand on the unit and then use it more easily. You might think about how that might work with the iPads.

So, that's my feedback... sorry I'm not more positive! The Avidyne unit looks like a good one, and the backup attitude indicator looks very nice. It will be great when it's done!

[Adam Frisch]

Skyflyer, Donv - thanks for your input!

The main reason for having two iPads is situational awareness. How often don't we have people onboard who asks: "what's the name of that city over there?", or "what airport is that?". No way of knowing on an IFR chart. With two, you can have one in VFR mode at all times and the other in IFR. Also prevents you from getting vectored into a mountain, like that 777 out of LAX almost did the other night. Had they had a simple iPad with Foreflight VFR map on it, they would have questioned ATC earlier. IFR charts are not very clear when it comes to obstacle avoidance.

I agree I'd like to keep the instruments like they are now and from factory - stacked on top of each other. It just means that then the iPad mounts end up so far to the right, they're not as usable. And I get all this unusable space at the tope of the panel..

Skyflyer - iPad pro is a good suggestion. Might be a better solution. But I actually think it can only display SV with something else - you can't display VFR chart with IFR charts split. At least, I've never seen it.

Donv - No, it'll have a second GS/VOR in the 255.

As for redundancy, the L3 has barometric inputs, so it has speed and altimeter as well, not just GPS based. I don't really see the need to have a third AI, Altimeter and Airspeed on the right side when I already have two.

[ghancock]

I agree mostly with Donv.

First off the touch screens do nothing more than piss me off when it is bumpy.  Even with the edges of the 750 sticking out it is difficult to get the numbers you want.  I am totally on the fence as to which I prefer at the end of the day because I never had any trouble with the 530, only reason for me to upgrade was potential radar install at some point and being able to control audio panel from the 750 instead of a separate unit.

I would not install 2 ipads, total overkill and waste of good panel space.  Electronics are cool but you get too much in there and you'll either not use some of it very much or you'll be so busy in there trying to keep up that you'll loose a grip on the whole point in being in there in the first place.  I would definitely eliminate one. I also don't much prefer the larger ipad pro unit as it is just way too big and you'll only be using it in the plane.  One of the things I like about my smaller ipad pro is that is functions perfectly for my office ipad as well.
 
I don't know enough about the engine instruments in a Turbine to have an opinion but would think have left and right beside each other would serve for quicker identification.  Mine are up in the top but all of the important stuff is contained in a single instrument allowing the left and right scenario to work well up there.  Seems like turbines have a bunch of very tiny gauges instead.

I am interested in one thing though.  Go enter 62GA into your Avidyne and see if it finds it.  The absolute number one complaint I have about my 750 is that it can't flight plan me away or to my damn airport.  It acts like since it is not an airport it doesn't know how to do anything.  When in fact they made me waypoint it in the first place because of their lack of capabilities.  I am actually thinking of switching to Avidyne because of this one problem.

As for your latest comments:  Those people that want to know the name of that city are usually sitting in the back :-)

When I fly around mountains I always split screen my one ipad and have synthetic vision up.  So whether I'm viewing IFR or VFR maps I still see what is in front of me.  Also, to be honest, I usually flip back and forth anyway.  ie: I am on IFR to get information inserted and see what I'm doing, then I'm back to VFR to see what is out there.  I'll only go back to IFR if something comes up that requires it.



Oh, and Adam,  do a damn good job on my panel will you?  :-)

Glenn

[Adam Frisch]

I only use my iPad for the plane, rarely for something else. At home I use my laptop. So the iPad pro could work for that.

I've been flying with suction cup Ram mounts and iPads obstructing the view, shaking, overheating, dropping down in your lap when pressure drops, leaving ugly suction marks everywhere, power cords hanging everywhere looking like a junkies plane. Horrible. I've had enough. Panel mount for me. Never ever want to see a power cord again.

[SKYFLYER]

Adam, split screen works well on the Pro and when split both screens are about a quarter of an inch less than Air2 so good visability.
I have never used the Mini as it is too small for me, but the Air2 and Pro I like. I have a seat track mount that is solid not goose neck.
Also on reflection, I agree with Don about the engine gauges being to the right of the stack vertical as that is the factory placement and you would find it easier to fly another turbine commander or other make, but again this is YOUR Commander and it needs to be the way you want it to be.

I am trying to post attachments pictures of the pro with sv full screen and split with SV/IFR and IFR/VFR
but keep getting an error msg.