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Author Topic: 840 -5 vs -10  (Read 21229 times)

EricDapp

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840 -5 vs -10
« on: October 05, 2016, 05:52:05 pm »
So 30 knots difference and better climb. And a small savings in fuel.  And better resale.

How much savings at overhaul and hot sections?

Is the 254k -5 close to the -10 or still a ways apart.

Initial price difference $300-400k. That savings might be the  difference in getting this deal done.

I think the 840 is a better investment than a 690 with a permanent spar.

donv

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2016, 11:37:32 pm »
I can't help you much with the overhaul price, but I certainly agree that an 840 is going to be a better long run investment than a 690. It's simply better, in many ways, and the lack of ADs is a big one, at least to me.

Steve binnette

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2016, 04:08:30 am »
Are you going to have to worry about overhaul?  If that time comes you can find used engines to mitigate costs.

The longer wing and additional fuel add a lot of value to the 840 and that's with out considering the bigger cargo area.




donv

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2016, 01:37:24 pm »
Are you thinking about buying one which is close to overhaul?

In some ways, depending on how much you fly, that can be a good deal. Once you get within a few hundred hours of overhaul, the price is basically the same as if it's due right now.

However, one caution: -5s can lose performance as they get close to hot section, and can sometimes need to be hot sectioned early. This doesn't seem to be an issue with -10s.

EricDapp

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2016, 09:23:52 pm »
So the dash 10 I'm interested in is the one at Bartlett with overhauled motors. Steam guages
Asking $970 now

And the -5 powered one in Montana. 2000 hours til tbo. It has G600
Haven't talked to the owner in a while but I thought he was asking in the $700k range


donv

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2016, 11:16:15 am »
The -5 in Montana is, I believe, one of the very last 840s made-- maybe even the last one. It has a bunch of minor improvements that they did as part of the development of the 900-- so circuit breaker panels on the left and right, for instance. I'd give that one a good look.

It was the one with the state of New Mexico for many years, right?

Jonathan Gray

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2016, 12:24:37 pm »
Last time a talked to National Flight about the -5 hot section cost they were from $75,000-$100,000 per side.  It looks like the one in Montana will need hot sections in about 900 hours and will probably also need gear box overhauls, which i think are about $25,000-$30,000, but i could be wrong on that amount.  Also the overhauls were $200,000-$225,000 per engine, but like Steve said you can find mid time -5 much cheaper than that.  We have pretty much decided on the -10 but don't know yet if it will be a 690 or and 840.  I did a demo flight in 73EF a couple weeks ago.  Let me know if a can answer any questions about it.

EricDapp

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2016, 01:27:33 pm »
How about a pirep on her. Any negatives other than the steam guages? Does is show in person as the pictures look? Have they had any offers?

Bruce Byerly

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2016, 09:57:08 am »
So 30 knots difference and better climb. And a small savings in fuel.  And better resale.

How much savings at overhaul and hot sections?

Is the 254k -5 close to the -10 or still a ways apart.

Initial price difference $300-400k. That savings might be the  difference in getting this deal done.

I think the 840 is a better investment than a 690 with a permanent spar.

Assuming a good quality engine that has not been melted, the savings at overhaul and hots can be huge.  The hot section is substantially more robust with air cooled first stage segmented blades and many other design changes. -10's are tough.  You will want them.  But -5's are better than no dashes at all!

No doubt that an 840/980, generally speaking, is a higher value plane but 690's have certain advantages. Not sure I'd call any plane an investment  ;)  8)

donv

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2016, 06:19:44 pm »
Bruce-- what would you say are the advantages of a 690 over a Jetprop?

Bruce Byerly

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2016, 06:59:02 pm »
Bruce-- what would you say are the advantages of a 690 over a Jetprop?

Sorry Don, my iPhone broke down and so I had to figure out the login and user profile ...

Anyway, I think some of what you and I would consider advantages can also be disadvantages and some differences are a matter of perspective and opinion:

1) shorter wing, fits in more hangars
2) fuel cells, the A/B has 10-12 more, but they either leak or they don't and they last a long time while every wet wing aircraft ever built is either leaking or one hard landing away from leaking. And like jets, they can be interesting to correct properly
3) environmental. It's like an iron skillet
4) parts commonality - higher production
5) simplicity
6) other odds and ends like the stalls can be a bit more predictable in short wing planes

EricDapp

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2016, 12:03:58 am »
Does anyone have more info or has looked at N721TB  in Idaho at jet Brokers?

Is the 254 -5  closer to the dash 10 than the 251-5? Or are they both equally inferior?

Bruce Byerly

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2016, 06:31:03 pm »
Does anyone have more info or has looked at N721TB  in Idaho at jet Brokers?

Is the 254 -5  closer to the dash 10 than the 251-5? Or are they both equally inferior?

Eric:  A -5 is a -5.  A 252 or 254 is a Woodward FCU.  It may be a bit better but it's no faster nor are the hot sections any different.  Not the top of the decision tree in my book.  I'm happy to help advise you if you are looking for a Commander.

Best - Bruce

donv

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2016, 05:26:31 pm »
I've had pretty good luck with wet wings, personally. Of course, I haven't had experience with as many as you have, but of the 2 1000s and a 980 which I've spent a lot of time with, none of them had issues.

Bruce-- what would you say are the advantages of a 690 over a Jetprop?

Sorry Don, my iPhone broke down and so I had to figure out the login and user profile ...

Anyway, I think some of what you and I would consider advantages can also be disadvantages and some differences are a matter of perspective and opinion:

1) shorter wing, fits in more hangars
2) fuel cells, the A/B has 10-12 more, but they either leak or they don't and they last a long time while every wet wing aircraft ever built is either leaking or one hard landing away from leaking. And like jets, they can be interesting to correct properly
3) environmental. It's like an iron skillet
4) parts commonality - higher production
5) simplicity
6) other odds and ends like the stalls can be a bit more predictable in short wing planes

JimC

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Re: 840 -5 vs -10
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2017, 02:06:27 pm »
Bruce-- what would you say are the advantages of a 690 over a Jetprop?
3) environmental. It's like an iron skillet

What ways do you recommend to cool of 840s on the ground?
500B, B200