Training in turbine commander?

[JimC]

I would like a jet prop flight manual so I can start learning the systems and numbers for the planes. Does the factory sell them or do you have to get a flight safety or simcom type? I've been watching eBay. I did buy  the giant 840-980 maintenance manual on eBay for $20. It's 6" thick

$70.

https://www.eflightmanuals.com/ITEM_EFM/SDETAIL_EFM.asp?mID=2280

[donv]

I've concluded that, given the simulators which are available for Commanders, it's not worth it for me to go all the way to Florida. While there are drawbacks to training in the airplane, it's not that big of a deal and still quite worthwhile. The quality of the instructor matters more than anything.

I had a great experience with Larry York Aviation this year, and would recommend them.

[KenFlo]

Don,  I agree.  My plan for annual training is to do it with Larry York.  After the initial I don't really see any value going back to SIMCOM.  SIMCOM checks a block but I think in the airplane annual training with a very experienced Commander MEI is much more beneficial. 

[av8r]

Just ran across this post and thought I would throw in a few comments even though I don’t know how old the post is.

FlightSafety Training Manuals - When FSI exited the Commander market the program was based in Houston. When the simulators went away so did all the training manuals, most of them were trashed.

Number of simulators - things may have changed but there were only twoCommander simulators ever certifiedand FSI certified both. A third flight training device was constructed and operated by Simu-Flight but it never attained simulator status. My information is that all three devices have reverted FTD’s and a Commander simulator is no longer certified.

Training manuals - my office is getting too cluttered so I’m ready to get rid of a few items.

1- I have one almost new 1984 version complete FSI 690 Training manual that is available.

2- I have one new FSI JetProp Training manual available

3- I have one soft cover 1968 “Turbo Commander Training Manual” published by Aero Commander Division, North American Rockwell available. This manual covers the 680T, V, W with some reference to the 681.

4- I have one 1969 “Model 681 Training Manual” published by Aero Commander Division, North American Rockwell available.

5- There is one hard cover 1971 690 Aero Commander Training manual available.

6- There is one 1973 version of the Garrett/Airesearch Pilot’s Brief booklet available.

7- I have hard copies as well as digitized copies of 690A through 695A flight manuals. The supplements and performance data has been removed from the hard copies but are around here somewhere. There is also an unused complete 500S and 695B flight manual available.

And finally I have a couple of collectors items. One is an uncirculated 1973 sales brochure for the 690 Commander. The second is a pewter model of the Commander incorporated into a wine bottle stopper.

If you need or want any of these items you can call/text me at 405-503-0253 or you can email me at av8r2@cox.net.

Happy Flying

JW

[Adam Frisch]

Hi. I wouldn't mind the 680T/V/W manual.

[av8r]

What would you consider a fair price Adam?

[donv]

Sad that they trashed the training manuals. I think the FlightSafety manuals are, by far, the best training manuals for the Commander series.

The simulators all being FTDs shouldn't really make much of a difference. They were never much better than that anyway, and the only real reason you would want a Level B or above simulator is so you can do an entire type rating checkride without having to use the airplane. Since no Commanders require a type rating, that's irrelevant.

[Adam Frisch]

I don't know. You tell me what you'd like for it and I'll see if  seems reasonable.

[av8r]

$100.00

[av8r]

All the talk about simulators is very interesting. When a training device is certified as a simulator the process is arduous. You must have flight test data collected per the FAA requirements programmed for the machine and only then will the FAA consider certification. As the guy who did all the flight test data collection I got to do things in the airplane that I only dreamed of. Working with THE FSI Flight Test Division in Tulsa using a 690B furnished by Eagle Creek and a 1000 furnished by Wal-Mart I really put the airplanes through their full flight envelope. Doing an engine failure on takeoff at 1 knot above VMC and continuing the TO was fun. Learned a lot about the Commander and ME aerodynamics from that test. Testing and establishing VMU - minimum unstick speed, an airspeed not generally tested in aircraft like the Commander - was another favorite. The pucker factor that comes with becoming airborne at 70+/- knots with the gear down is exhilarating to say the least. Another favorite test was called “Flap Change Dynamics”. In this test we configured the airplanes gear up, flaps 40 at 140 knots and trimmed “hands off”. The test consisted of retracting the flaps and sitting on your hands. As the airspeed indicators bottomed out my only thought was to push the nose over but the flight test engineer kept insisting “it won’t stall”, and sure enough he was right. The last test for this post was “landing at maximum gross weight and measuring stopping distance with maximum braking only, no beta or reverse thrust - engines at FI. More later if you’re interested.

[KenFlo]

Very interesting.  I would like to see more.  One question you might be able to answer...I have -10s on a 690B, why doesn't the -10 supplement include performance charts?  It just says equal to or better than -5s.  Also, why don't we have performance charts for the engine?  Like max power available, cruise power, etc (HP and EGT info).  I am new to the Commander so it may be a dumb question.....Thanks

[donv]

All the talk about simulators is very interesting. When a training device is certified as a simulator the process is arduous. You must have flight test data collected per the FAA requirements programmed for the machine and only then will the FAA consider certification. As the guy who did all the flight test data collection I got to do things in the airplane that I only dreamed of. Working with THE FSI Flight Test Division in Tulsa using a 690B furnished by Eagle Creek and a 1000 furnished by Wal-Mart I really put the airplanes through their full flight envelope. Doing an engine failure on takeoff at 1 knot above VMC and continuing the TO was fun. Learned a lot about the Commander and ME aerodynamics from that test. Testing and establishing VMU - minimum unstick speed, an airspeed not generally tested in aircraft like the Commander - was another favorite. The pucker factor that comes with becoming airborne at 70+/- knots with the gear down is exhilarating to say the least. Another favorite test was called “Flap Change Dynamics”. In this test we configured the airplanes gear up, flaps 40 at 140 knots and trimmed “hands off”. The test consisted of retracting the flaps and sitting on your hands. As the airspeed indicators bottomed out my only thought was to push the nose over but the flight test engineer kept insisting “it won’t stall”, and sure enough he was right. The last test for this post was “landing at maximum gross weight and measuring stopping distance with maximum braking only, no beta or reverse thrust - engines at FI. More later if you’re interested.

That is interesting... I assume that was for some sort of upgrade or recertification?

[donv]

Very interesting.  I would like to see more.  One question you might be able to answer...I have -10s on a 690B, why doesn't the -10 supplement include performance charts?  It just says equal to or better than -5s.  Also, why don't we have performance charts for the engine?  Like max power available, cruise power, etc (HP and EGT info).  I am new to the Commander so it may be a dumb question.....Thanks

It has to do with the fact that the -10 upgrade on the 690 series is an STC. To get an STC for this sort of thing, all you have to do is show that the performance is as good or better than stock, but there is no requirement to create new performance charts (I believe you can if you want). There is a lot of expense involved in collecting and analyzing the data to create new performance charts, and I imagine no one wanted to pay for that.

[av8r]

DONV, yes the flight testing was accomplished to upgrade FSI’ Commander FTD’s to Level C simulators. You don’t get a whole lot from the Level C certification though. An instructor could issue a BFR in the sim if the pilot attested to the fact that he was landing current. Additionally am instructor who was an ii could issue an ICC.

[Adam Frisch]

$75