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Author Topic: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?  (Read 12487 times)

Adam Frisch

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Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« on: February 25, 2017, 01:08:16 am »
Had a long convo with Morris about this upgrade, which I'd never heard of before. Basically what they did was computer design and improved the flow inside the engine on the Super 5's to add a lot of power to them, and it costs about $60K/side to do this at overhaul. However, that gives you top speed of 282kts, which is a lot better than the 265-270kts you see for regular 5's. That's pretty close to -10 performance, for maybe a third of the cost, as the -10 conversion runs a good $120K/side for mounts, engineering etc, plus the STC cost. Probably close to $200K side when all is said and done. That's on top of what the more expensive engine costs. Only drawback is you have to do two hots, rather than one on the -10's, but it'll still be a cheaper option.

Why don't more people do them? And did you even know this was an option?

Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

donv

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2017, 12:55:00 pm »
I've never heard of this.

It would be interesting to learn a little bit more. I'm a bit skeptical, but I suppose you never know. The Dash 10 is just such a good solution, and so many airplanes have already been converted, that it's really the way to go, in my opinion.

I suppose that if you have a dash 5 airplane today, and it's due for overhaul, this might be a good alternative. I believe the Dash 10 conversion has gotten pretty expensive lately.

ghancock

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2017, 12:35:27 pm »
Adam, I can answer your question...  Engineers designed the -5 to do X on the perofrmance graph and to last its lifetime with minimal problems.  You can always get more power out of anything with the right application of force.  However, doing this is going to cause more problems on the long haul and will put unintended stress on the engines for the sake of 20 knots in airspeed.   I'd save all the money and just keep flying the stock -5's...

Oh, and getting that extra power will result in using more gas and shorten your legs even further.  Then you'll have to get the slippers and there goes your 20 knot advantage.

Don't mess my plane up :-)

Glenn
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You can't win an argument with an ignorant person,  they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Adam Frisch

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2017, 06:14:38 pm »
Also, seems to be able to put it on a 6000hr interval as well, with 2000hr HSI's (I think). Never heard of that interval - it was always 5000/2, 5400/3 or 7000/2.

Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

donv

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2017, 10:14:04 pm »
Who does the conversion?

ghancock

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2017, 08:58:18 am »
So Adam,  Did you find the conversion?
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You can't win an argument with an ignorant person,  they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Adam Frisch

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2017, 06:41:25 pm »
No I didn't find out. Couldn't get a straight answer out of Morris when I asked, but it could be because I was on a bad line when I was in Chile and he didn't hear me properly. I'm seeing him on the 21st, so I'll ask again then.
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

Bruce Byerly

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2017, 01:40:32 am »
Had a long convo with Morris about this upgrade, which I'd never heard of before. Basically what they did was computer design and improved the flow inside the engine on the Super 5's to add a lot of power to them, and it costs about $60K/side to do this at overhaul. However, that gives you top speed of 282kts, which is a lot better than the 265-270kts you see for regular 5's. That's pretty close to -10 performance, for maybe a third of the cost, as the -10 conversion runs a good $120K/side for mounts, engineering etc, plus the STC cost. Probably close to $200K side when all is said and done. That's on top of what the more expensive engine costs. Only drawback is you have to do two hots, rather than one on the -10's, but it'll still be a cheaper option.

Why don't more people do them? And did you even know this was an option?

Adam - I think Super 5's pre-dated -10T's and were done by Executive Wings in FL who were eventually bought out by National Flight.  Maybe even some of the same hot section as a -10 but without the big exhaust header, at least originally.  Not many done and doubt they still offer it but you could call Mike Converse over there in Toledo. - 10T's are now more like a $1.2m conversion which is why there will likely be no more.

Adam Frisch

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2017, 01:38:54 pm »
Thanks Bruce.

With that price it makes these conversions likely more attractive in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if they see an upsurge in them.
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

JimC

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2017, 02:54:47 pm »
10T's are now more like a $1.2m conversion which is why there will likely be no more.
WOW - where does that money go? Seriously - where? How much of that is airframe adaptation, how much of that is converting the engine, etc...

I'm considering a -5 840, with plans to upgrade in a few years at TBO but I'd heard I should plan on $500K total for the upgrade. There's a big different between that and 1.2M.
500B, B200

Adam Frisch

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2017, 06:55:29 pm »
I think it's about $200K aside just for the firewall mod, exhaust mod, engine mounts, STC. Then the engines, so it could very well be that Bruce's number is what it ends up being.
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

Bruce Byerly

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2017, 07:59:21 pm »
10T's are now more like a $1.2m conversion which is why there will likely be no more.
WOW - where does that money go? Seriously - where? How much of that is airframe adaptation, how much of that is converting the engine, etc...

I'm considering a -5 840, with plans to upgrade in a few years at TBO but I'd heard I should plan on $500K total for the upgrade. There's a big different between that and 1.2M.

Jim - Nothing wrong with a -5 840 at all, just don't expect it will ever economically become a -10.  At $895,000, I just listed a spectacular corporate -10 840 with all the right stuff.  Fits well into the "but your last plane first" theory. Or we can go 1000 for not much more.  Several good options right now. Let me know if can assist you in any capacity. As far as the conversion, we can trade our way into a lower price but any good set of -10 engines for an 840 is going to be expensive.  Then the STC conversion is going to be on top of that cost.  Makes more sense to buy one done.

donv

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2017, 08:14:52 pm »
840JC? Although, the Semitool guy switched the N-numbers, so it's not our old 840JC...

JimC

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2017, 08:43:25 am »
"Buy your last plane first" works very well for those in the world who are born with personal accountants. ;) For the rest of us, we need to keep climbing the income ladder - and often the intermediate planes help us climb. So no, I don't have a 900k budget today, but a 280kt/1200nm plane would help me get there quicker. I'm window shopping the 600k planes (and always hoping someone will let one go for 500k, of course.)

500B, B200

Bruce Byerly

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Re: Super 5's as an alternative to -10's?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2017, 09:46:54 am »
"Buy your last plane first" works very well for those in the world who are born with personal accountants. ;) For the rest of us, we need to keep climbing the income ladder - and often the intermediate planes help us climb. So no, I don't have a 900k budget today, but a 280kt/1200nm plane would help me get there quicker. I'm window shopping the 600k planes (and always hoping someone will let one go for 500k, of course.)

I certainly get it. How about a long range -10 840 then for under $700,000?  Invariably, I have found that while 270 KTAS may seem more than enough now, the desire for 300 KTAS gets even stronger after you get comfortable in the plane.  YMMV.