560F for sale

[Willis]

As you know, the search still continues.  Today I finally got a look at the books on the 560F thats for sale

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Multi+Engine+Piston&make=COMMANDER&model=560F&listing_id=2164694&s-type=aircraft

The PDF's of the logbooks can be seen here;  http://www.lvaircraft.com/

It was imported (from where?) in 1981 with ~8800 hrs on it.
#1 engine had a field overhaul in 2005 and now has 12 hours on it
#2 engine was overhauled in '87 and has ~850 hours on it.

Both engines are original to the aircraft, which is novel.

I dont think its been flown since 2005 regardless of the records showing annuals in 2012 and 2015.

If you like a puzzle or the Genealogy of things...read through the books.  What would you pay for this AC and how would you do a prebuy on it?

[EricDapp]

The first number that comes to mind is $30k. You might spend $50k to get it In the air. 12 hours in 12 years could open up a huge can of worms. Ask Glenn.

[donv]

It must have flown between 2011 and 2015, because the 2011 annual was done in Las Vegas and the 2015 annual was done somewhere in California. I'm assuming it wasn't trucked...

Furthermore, the Garmin 430 in the panel is a good sign that someone intended to use it.

Personally, I'd do a really thorough pre-buy, and it might be a good airplane. Hard to say without seeing it in person. It's certainly high time, which can be both good and bad... it would be better if more of the time was recent. That said, these big piston Commanders don't get flown much these days, so it would be a surprise to find one that did have a lot of recent time-- other than maybe a freighter or a photo ship.

[donv]

Also, note in the last log entry (from 2015) that they replaced the hobbs meter, which may explain why it seems like it hasn't flown.

[Willis]

Also, note in the last log entry (from 2015) that they replaced the hobbs meter, which may explain why it seems like it hasn't flown.

Yes, that tripped me up, the first go 'round.  Then I back checked the hobbs and I think the 850 hour engine is actually more like 1050 hrs.

Still, a lot of new "Software"  (hoses, uppolstery, switches), lots of instrument OH's   I found one reference to removing/replacing a skin panel for corrosion.  Also, some sort of fuselage structural repair to an area similar to Glenns 680FP  (Sta: 125 to 140).  This one has had a few spar inspections.

My feeling is that the engine Overhauls were done locally, possibly on the field in Las Vegas.  I didnt' sift through the OH parts list; but that should be done. Also look closer at WHO physically did the OH.

"I" can OH an engine, but its been nearly 30 years and I'd have to do a couple of my own for practice, before Id commit to flying behind one.  I'd insist that a real engine builder look over my torques/specs the whole time.  Its not magic, but it is tedious work following the specifications.

[donv]

The older engine overhaul was done in 1997, by a fairly large engine shop in the LA area (although I don't know if they are still in business). I can't read the log entry for the overhaul of the other engine-- the photo is too blurry.

Personally, I don't see any red flags in those log entries. In fact, I see evidence of a lot of money spent already on the airplane. But I'm in no way an expert... please have someone who knows these airplanes take a look and give an opinion.

[donv]

Incidentally, the fact that the props were overhauled in 2012 is another good sign. As you can see, they have a five year calendar time limit on them.

[Adam Frisch]

I think the engine on the 560F is unique to that model. Don't think it was installed in any other aircraft, as far as I know. So call around and ask Morris etc if there is good part availability on them.

[ghancock]

My 2 Cents:  I would focus prebuy on airframe only to make sure there isn't any part needing work.  I would also look as good as you can inside wheel well area and top of nacelle where exhaust blows.  A lot of patch pieces up there might indicate that you need to pull them off and inspect under them good.  Look for loose rivots anwhere along the way.

Point:  If the airframe is in good shape you can always overhaul engines.  I would not be overly concerned about where engines were rebuilt.  I've heard plenty of stories of engines failing coming from the big shops just as much as home built ones.  If the airframe comes back in perfect shape then I'd purchase the airplane with the assumption of buying 2 new engines and see if that price fits into your budget.  If it does I'd buy it today. :-).

Facts: You will never get out of an airplane what you put into it.  You should purchase asking how much you can spend and are you going to be happy with it when you are done. 

If you are going to repair something, repair it as perfectly as possible.  This makes the airplane less prone to breaking down somewhere and gives you the safest solution.  Patching things until next time tends to never get fixed properly and is probably what others have been doing to the plane for a while.

Check cables as good as you can during inspection.  A broken cable can also be fixed but some require a ton of work to reroute them.  I'd find out who did the last wing inspection and call them if possible to make sure everything checked out ok.

The fact that you said you can do your own engine overhaul tells me you are mechanically inclined.  My advise to you is to find a mechanic or two that are willing to come inspect your work and work with them in your shop.  I tried to take my plane to a Commander shop and even got a big Commander guy recommending them only to find out it was an entire scam.  I spent over $25k and am now having to redo and replace almost everything those idiots touched.  I'm not saying there are not good shops out there, just that I'll never leave my airplane anywhere again.

I purchased a Cessna 310Q in worse shape than this airplane (as long as airframe is in good shape).  I purchased it for $34k and have about $100k in it now but have almost 500 hours in it and have flown it from coast to coast multiple times.  In fact it is one of the most awesome airplanes I've owned and probably going to be keeping it.

If you can not afford to spend another $100k on the plane though I wouldn't buy it.  You will proabably be able to get her flying for a lot less but the last thing you want to do is buy it and get half way through the restore and run out of money.

My 2 cents,

Glenn