1121 Jet Commander

[ghancock]

Awesome story and video was very funny.

Glenn

[donv]

I always wondered what happened after he sold the DC-9. Did he just go back to flying on the airlines? He must have had to do some traveling?

[JMA]

I would imagine he had another plane, just not one with a disco.
I'll do some internet investigating...  Gotta be out there somewhere.

[ghancock]

Question:  Why would an old guy with that many girls coming in and out of his home need to travel?  Confused... :-)

Glenn

[SKYFLYER]

He was not "old" back in the time of the "Baby-9"......  Just goes to prove heaps of sex be it good or not so good makes for a long life.

Interesting story about the Baby 9's.. TWA had them and sold them to Ozark to replace their Convair 580's and then TWA a few years later ended up buying Ozark and got all the 9's back.

Then sold or sent to the bone yard all of them save one.

[donv]

Glenn, I know you will appreciate this. The Jet Commander also used Skydrol, even though it has a bleed air pressurization.

The way you check the level (and I'll have to look in my AFM next time to see if this is the actual procedure, or just how I was taught) was to open up the aft compartment (many Jet Commanders had a little baggage area back there, but as far as I know they were all mods-- from the factory, it was just open to all the equipment). The reservoir tank was in there-- if it had a baggage mod, you sometimes had to open a panel.

Anyway, you reached back in there, because there was no way to see, and carefully first stuck your fingernail into the relief valve at the top of the reservoir. This released the pressure, and was an important step... because the next step was to pop the cap of the reservoir off, and if you forgot step 1, you sprayed skydrol everywhere, including all down your arm.

Then, you stuck your finger in the tank, and if you could feel the skydrol, you were good.

Then, you closed everything up and immediately went and thoroughly washed your hands!

The Westwind, in the spirit of continuous improvement, had a little lever that you pushed to release the pressure, and then a sight gauge. As a poor copilot who always had to do the preflight, I thought this was about the best thing ever!

[donv]

Here is a picture where you can see the flaps extended. That split flap was just awful. In addition to the fact that it mostly just generated drag, you couldn't put any flaps out until 160 knots, which is really slow in a jet. In fact, you could put the gear out at 180 knots, and we usually did that to slow down before putting any flaps out.

If you took off with the flaps up, the engine-out climb improved dramatically. Unfortunately, the takeoff speeds, and runway required, went up as well.

[ghancock]

So wonder why they used skydrol?  I thought the primary reason for me having it was the pressure.  Did those planes generate that much pressure for just the gear?

Glenn

[donv]

I'll have to look at my 1121 FlightSafety manual next time I'm at the hangar, but I believe they did run the high pressure system. The Westwind continued to use the same basic system, and I would guess the G150 still does.

You are right, though, that it doesn't seem like there is anything which really needs that high pressure. The Westwind allows flaps to go out at 250 knots, so that might require some force... made speed control super easy, though!

[donv]

I looked it up in my FlightSafety manual. It's a 2000 psi system, so sort of in between, with New York Airbrake pumps.

[donv]

This is what happens when you land on an icy runway before they had thrust reversers...

[ghancock]

Impressive the gear didn't fold up.

[donv]

Did basically no damage, except a little bit to the nose gear door, I believe. They weren't going very fast when they went off the end, and the airplane is built like a tank.

[donv]

The Jet Commander initially did not come with thrust reversers. By the time I started flying them, all the ones I flew (which were all late serial numbers, with the exception of #7) had thrust reversers added. This was a good thing, because the CJ-610 developed a lot of thrust at idle. A LOT-- something like 600 pounds. Supposedly, this could accelerate the Jet Commander to 60 knots in a 6,000 foot runway-- at idle, mind you.

So you can see why thrust reversers on a Jet Commander were a Very Good Thing.

The salty old-school guys who flew them before thrust reversers had a technique. When the mains touched down, they would reach down and shut one engine down, to cut the residual thrust in half. Now, generally this was a good idea...

In the picture above, the guys had a plan. Well, the PIC had a plan, and the SIC tried like crazy to talk him out of it, to no avail. The PIC's plan was to touch down, try the brakes, and if there was no braking action, go around and go to the neighboring airport with snow removal and 10,000 foot+ runways. He briefed the SIC to stand by on the flaps when the touched down, in case they had to go around.

So far so good... they touched down, no brakes... my friend (who was the SIC) said "standing by on the flaps" and the PIC told him, "don't bother" as, unfortunately, he had already shut an engine down!

They actually managed to get it slowed considerably by the time it went off the end. My friend the SIC said it hopped once and came to a stop in the mud.

Fortunately for me, I missed those early days!

[Bruce Byerly]

Fun old (or not so old!) memories Don!  I wish I could remember all of the old stories of using ALL of the runway available.  My dad had an autographed pic of Sylvester Stallone in a WW - might have been an 1123 or "Commodore," anyway, I think Robin Smith was the instructor when we had one.   

I heard a few recently from Bob Mays on some of those deals. Maybe I should interview him as an action item.

Funny, today I did a 61.58 ride in a Phenom.  We were loading some procedure and, in some moment of slight confusion, I went back to basics and referenced "needle, ball and airspeed."  Instructor said, "Nope. Not today!"  Lol.      How did these old jets get around?!

From a very young age, maybe 11 or 12,  I was impressed with the way a Jet Commander/WW felt taxing down the ramp.  Actually, I took it for granted until I got in a Citation and had to figure out all the creaking, squeaking, and rattles were just normal but must have meant they were junky. Ha.