NICE LOOKING 560F FOR SALE

[Adam Frisch]

I love geared engines too. They perform great and accelerate much quicker.

[donv]

It's a catch-22, though. At these lower prices, many of the people who buy these airplanes can't afford to maintain them, and so they get in a downward spiral of ever-increasing costs to keep them airworthy as more and more maintenance and proper repairs are deferred.

[Willis]

Ha! 

Although it's clear that twin prices are creeping up, and the 500B market has always been very strong, this is basically a 680F without superchargers. No 680 should be much over $100K, no matter what condition they're in. Because with geared engines, you're looking at double the O/H costs of a IO-540 and a 500B. That has to come from somewhere and the place it comes from is on purchase price. Maybe a little extra legroom for the IO-720, but they're no huge draw in themselves as they cost about as much as geared engines to keep running. This is in my opinion a $75-125K plane, max.

One factor not mentioned is that these are NA IO-720's  at 12kft, you're still at 65% power so any gains you had are kept at lower altitudes.

A turbocharged IO-720 powered 500 would make for a powerful and capable aircraft. 

[Delta3010]

Let me greet all the Commander gurus and owners.
I have been trying acquire a 500B for a little while now. I almost purchased N401MG from Bruce about 2 years ago. (But he would not response to my emails after I left FLL
I saw this post about N41KV and needed some advice on whether there are gotchas I should look for on an obviously neglected 560F with the 720's on it.
I did a recent prebuy.

However it was conducted under non-standard arrangements, to put it simply, prebuy was conducted by one of the facilities by a mechanic (not mine) who has done maintenance work on this aircraft. This is because the owner did not want to have the aircraft flown to a nearby facility, and then mechanic shop does not allow any other IA/A&P to operate in their facility.

All of these raise red flags. I did get a squawk list of some sort form the the facility who proceeded to pass that list over to the owner without my knowledge or approval.

I was contacted last week by the owner who is now willing to slash his last asking price by about $100K. That makes me really nervous. Any advice? Please note the engines have had less than 500 hours placed on them in the last 16 years (since last overhaul) and that also raises my eyebrows. The mechanic said I should not be concerned about that. HELP!!!

There is also this one I am speaking with the seller on.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/17900603/1960-aero-commander-500b

Is it worth the purchase? (I can replace/overhaul the engines if I need to)

Any advice from the professionals and experienced would be greatly appreciated.

[donv]

The 500B in your link looks like a nice one. I can't help much with valuation, but someone on here probably can.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, I would be most concerned with how well it's been taken care of and kept up over the years, and that 500B looks (very superficially) pretty good.

[ghancock]

I don't know a lot about that specific airplane but can give you my 1.5 cents.

First off, engines are always being replaced and always have work that needs to be done to them.  So depending on the price of the plane, if you can plan on putting new engines on it and are still comfortable with the price then I'd just forget about any major issues there.  The only issue is if it causes you to buy it and immediate put it in the shop which would just suck :-)

The main thing I'd be worried about with the plane would be the shape of cables, metal, wings and so forth.  How good is the paint, is it in a hanger or outside, how long has it lived outside during its life span and where.  Combined those could amount to some pretty intense maintenance needs and possible grounding the airplane if things are bad enough.

I don't trust anyone associated with the airplane or owner period.  I hired Morris to do my Pre-buy but the main thing I was interested in was the airframe and systems.  A pre-buy is by no means going to save you much and in most cases should be viewed primarily as a safety catch to make sure you don't buy a total piece of crap.  It is not going to find everything wrong though and shouldn't be expected to.  The main things to be looking for are pretty obvious most of the time.

Hard to say what to do.  I don't know how you worked it but I would have made it an absolute point to be there in person when the prebuy was done.  If you didn't do this then you basically threw money out the door because you don't even know if the guy opened a single panel.  Go do it again and look for cracks, white corrosion on the aluminum and open ever panel.  Look for hydraulic leaks, engine leaks, move all the controls and look inside everything you can get a light to.  Look for rust or broken wires on the cables everywhere you can see.  Review the logbooks for past events or maintenance that was done that might bring something to light.  Ask the owner to take you for a ride.  If he won't then I'd definitely be suspect :-)

Wish I could help more but good luck.

Glenn

[Delta3010]

Donv and Glenn, thanks for taking the time to respond to my query/plea for advice.

I'm talking to the seller for the 500B to procure the logs and history on the aircraft. Hopefully I'll get them before the week is out.

Concerning the 560F, I currently have my mechanic looking through the squawk list from the prebuy and doing a costing to troubleshoot and repair all the major items identified. He has been questioning both the owner and the prebuy mechanic on anything that appears to be ambiguous or questionable (like an annual completed last year that is not signed off)

He will also advise if I should lean toward the 500B and walk away from the 560F.

He is ready to fly out to the have a look over the 560F should we get an nod from the owner. However I am more leaning toward the 500B provided it is flyable, can pass an annual without breaking the bank, and in fair cosmetic condition (no major corrosion issues.

Compression tests done as part of the prebuy and this is what they look like:
LEFT ENGINE COMPRESSIONS

1.  70/80   2.  74/80   3.  76/80   4.  74/80
5.  74/80   6.  73/80   7.  69/80   8.  72/80


RIGHT ENGINE COMPRESSIONS

1.  76/80   2.  67/80   3.  69/80    4.  67.80
5.  71/80   6.  66/80   7.  68/80   8.  70/80

These are some of the issues identified:
1.   AD STATUS CURRENT WITH AD 76-12-09R2 DUE
2.   ACFT BATTERIES DEAD AND WILL NOT HOLD CHARGE
3.   STATIC WICKS NEED TO BE REPLACED, MANY MISSING
4.   PAINT CONDITION FAIR.
     PAINT COMING OFF CONTROL SURFACES AT TRAILING EDGES
5.   ELT HAS CRACKED CASE AND NEEDS REPLACEMENT
6.   AUX HYDRAULIC PUMP CYCLING ?
7.   GARMIN GPS 430 OLD DATA BASE AND BUTTONS WONT WORK
8.   JANITROL HEATER WILL NOT LIGHT OFF
9.   LEFT AND RIGHT JPI UNITS TRIP CIRCUIT BREAKERS
10. FUEL FLOW INDICATOR DIED DURING ENGINE RUN

Thanks again for your feedback and advice and all duly noted. Will proceed only with due caution and diligence.

[ghancock]

The comment about the aux hydraulic pump cycling generally means you have a leak somewhere.  Not a huge deal and can be fixed.  Sounds like there may be some electrical issues and the heater honestly shouldn't have been attempted to be lit until someone does a leak check on it.  I don't know how long it has been sitting but it doesn't sound like anyone has given it much attention.  Again, nothing to say no if the price is right but I"m more concerned with the airframe since it is the one thing you can't easily replace.

Good luck,

Glenn

[Delta3010]

Glenn, thanks. I agree with you concerning the fuselage condition.

Here is what is included in the prebuy report:

"THE AIRCRAFT PRESENTS WELL.  MINOR PAINT TOUCH UP AND DETAILING WOULD CURE THE COSMETIC ISSUES.  VERY MINOR SKIN CORROSION WOULD BE RESOLVED WITH PAINT TOUCH UP.
 
HARDWARE IN FUEL BAY ACCESS PANELS IS RUSTING AND SHOULD BE REPLACED, AS SHOULD HARDWARE IN ALL TRIM TAB PUSH PULL RODS.
 
NO CORROSION WAS NOTED IN THE INTERIOR SECTIONS OF THE AIRCRAFT."

[Delta3010]

The 500B is sold.

Requested a test flight in the 560F but the owner declined citing no time for him to do so and no current insurance on the aircraft.

Said he would be relisting if I don't take up his final offer.

What would be considered a decent offer for this "mystery" (many unknowns) aircraft that has been on the market and pretty much sitting for the last 2 and half years?

Or Should I just run as fast as I can from it?

[Adam Frisch]

Maybe I missed this, but how much does he want for the 560F?

[donv]

Do you like projects?

[Delta3010]

I am new to the 560F. I hate unpleasant surprises. He is basically down to about $110K. If he is willing to go lower I would begin to suspect a spend of more than double that to get it airworthy and flying again.

[ghancock]

Ok,  here is my 2 cents.

If you're unwilling to fly the plane and unwilling to let anyone do an honest pre-buy on the plane then walk away.  Let him list it again as no one will buy it under those conditions.  There is something wrong with the plane and you won't know until it is too late.  I personally would not pay more than 75k and if I purchased would assume I needed 2 new engines which would put you into the 250k range by the time you got it flying.  The main scare I'd have though is on the airframe because engines can be replaced, the airframe not so much.  And him not wanting to get to into an actual inspection I'd be worried about something there.  Perhaps nothing wrong at all but he doesn't seem like a person you could trust with all the "no's"

Glenn

[Adam Frisch]

Agreed with Glenn.