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Author Topic: Tailplane Icing  (Read 2234 times)

donv

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Tailplane Icing
« on: February 12, 2018, 02:08:56 pm »
During my recurrent, we had a lengthy discussion about icing, and specifically tailplane icing. In a nutshell, the issue with tailplane icing is if too much ice builds up on the tail and causes it to stall, the result will be that the tail will suddenly drop and consequently the nose will pitch up. Without an effective tail, you won't be able to lower the nose.

I wasn't aware of any tailplane stall or icing issues on the Commander, but my instructor thought it was something to be concerned about.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Steve binnette

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2018, 12:58:24 pm »
The tail is big on the Commander and the leading edge is not particularly sharp.   I would guess it?s one of the better airplanes for tail ice.

Even still tail ice is serious in any plane.  A big advantage in the Commander is the fact that we can land with no flaps at almost the same speed as full flaps.

Selecting flaps will initiate the tail stall.  Landing without flaps eliminates that possibility.

I like ICEX and good boots on the tail, just in case!

donv

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2018, 07:00:41 pm »
Do you land without flaps when you have ice on the airplane?

I've never done so, myself.

Steve binnette

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2018, 10:38:41 am »
I have not needed to land with no flaps because of ice but I have landed no flaps to try it out.

Flies pretty much the same a little different in the flare.  When it is particularly gusty or a significant crosswind I use half flaps.

Adding flaps on approach makes the tail carry more weight normally not a problem but if you are iced up the tail could be close to a stall and the addition of the extra load could cause the tail to stall.. 

It?s a good thing to remember.  If you feel it happening just retract the flaps and land no flaps.

donv

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2018, 11:03:33 pm »
Most of the time, in the places I go, the ice comes off before I land. But not every time.

It's certainly true that landing with no flaps, or partial flaps, is not a big deal in the Commander. When I'm doing single engine training, I always land with half flaps.

ghancock

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2018, 08:08:08 pm »
I landed with no flaps when I had my engine out a few months back.  Never really gave it much thought and it landed pretty much as usual.  Just a bit faster.

Glenn
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You can't win an argument with an ignorant person,  they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

JimC

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 08:40:05 am »
the result will be that the tail will suddenly drop and consequently the nose will pitch up. Without an effective tail, you won't be able to lower the nose.

Sorry, but that is exactly wrong. A tailplane stall results in a sudden nose drop.

It is correct that one of the immediate corrective actions is to retract flaps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V99kVLVDPAI "Reached 40 degrees nose down"

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Ice_Contaminated_Tailplane_Stall
C206, C340

donv

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2018, 02:45:50 pm »
Thank you for that correction.

av8r

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 08:33:28 pm »
Folks, the FAA, NASA and the AOPA have issued new guidance on ice induced stalls and itís a real change from the original NASA guidance. The new guidance basically says that if you do not have full flaps extended then you are dealing with a wing stall, not a tail plane stall. I have copies of the training DVD that I would gladly share if anyone is interested

Adam Frisch

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2018, 12:18:51 pm »
There's even suggestion that the Colgan crash is perhaps partially in question as the captain had been made to see the previous NASA film on tail icing multiple times. And recently, too. If he thought he had tailplane icing, like in the NASA video, he actually did the right procedure.

I personally don't think it's what he did, but the question was raised in a few places and provide ample fodder for discussion.
Slumming it in the turboprop world - so you don't have to.

Bruce Byerly

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2018, 11:48:45 pm »
IMHO I donít believe tailplane stall issues to be significant on a properly maintained Commander and Twin Commander has analyzed the issue in depth as well.  Back in my younger days I have driven down the ILS at nearly full power in a Shrike with extremely severe icing.  Learned that lesson!  I have seen enough ice on an 840 in Montana to scare the crap out of myself. But Iíve only stalled the tail in a B58 with a sharp leading edge and holes in the leading edge tubes.  Never will forget that one. One plane was lost where this issue in particular was suggested but I have never seen any evidence and the known research and experience indicates that it is not more of an issue in the Commander than in any other plane of its class.  Always open to more data of course.

donv

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Re: Tailplane Icing
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2018, 01:16:44 am »
I looked pretty closely into the 840 accident in Colorado where it was suggested, and there seemed to be plenty of other things going on-- way over gross and out of CG, for starters.